Sailor Ted
Well-known
Mfunnel,
Yes this does reflect well on Leica- can you imagine better service? Of course it's what they should have done and it's in the spirit of what they did to get the quality reputation they developed over the years but still; it's refreshing to know old time quality service still exists among the huge multi national camera companies. This along with Leica's exceptional quality will be what keeps them in the game- performance without service would deliver little more then their competition but exceptional service combined with cutting edge performance is what continues to set Leica apart.
Yes this does reflect well on Leica- can you imagine better service? Of course it's what they should have done and it's in the spirit of what they did to get the quality reputation they developed over the years but still; it's refreshing to know old time quality service still exists among the huge multi national camera companies. This along with Leica's exceptional quality will be what keeps them in the game- performance without service would deliver little more then their competition but exceptional service combined with cutting edge performance is what continues to set Leica apart.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
rsl,
I have no doubt that my new camera will be as stellar as my last and if it is not, Leica will back it up. A great camera from a great company : )
I have no doubt that my new camera will be as stellar as my last and if it is not, Leica will back it up. A great camera from a great company : )
rolo
Established
paulhart said:
... and Campkins are selling them on that popular auction site.
Rolo
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
If it exceeds your skills right now, what do you need alledged 16 bit (I suppose you mean 14) for??espressogeek said:
As it is the non-linear compression Leica uses seems to be holding up pretty well and I tend to believe their claim that output in 8 bits compressed equals the 16 (14) bit input. Blobs and bands? I have two M8's, thousands of photographs and (after the ugrade of my first body) have yet to see my first band , and blobs none at all.naos
23 Skidoo
I not sure about the rest of the world, but in Korea, the M8 is constantlly on backorder. Whenever a new shipment comes in, it's usually sold-out within 24 hours. My dealer also told me that film M's and lenses are selling like hotcakes since the release of the M8. Despite it's flaws, I would call it a success for Leica.
HAnkg
Well-known
This is pretty much what is happening worldwide. The M8 has had a halo effect on Leica film camera and lens sales according to Leica management. It's also affected the used market and I would imagine Zeiss and VC sales. So whether it's new or old, film or digital, it would seem that the M8 is the best thing that's happened to the RF market in a long time. Providing much needed revenue to all the market players from manufacturers to dealers and plenty of incentive for continued development and participation. It's also pulling in new RF users and bringing old Leica users (like myself) back to the fold.naos said:
Quite a different picture then that painted by those predicting the collapse of sales as soon as the first orders where filled and the demise of Leica due to the M8 "fiasco". The development and introduction have been a trial by fire for Leica (as well as some early adopters) but Leica seems to be weathering the storm. They have been proactive in response to problems (especially when compared to how most corporations deal with similar problems -ignore/deny them) and will be a better and more responsive company for the experience.
JonR
Well-known
Is it that good!?
Is it that good!?
Well, most postings here on the RFF are very positive about the M8 success story but IMHO I am not so sure....
Yes - Leicas M8 has been selling OK or even good but my feeling is that it has primarily sold within the already existing Leica community and not done much to develop and expand the RF market. You see very little Leica marketing, very few camera stores display RF models and compared with the enormous volumes growth seen in both the compact digital camera and DSLR segments I bet Leica has lost out on it´s fair share.
My feeling is that Leica has done an exceptionally good job in convincing the already convinced believers, saving the absolute market share it had and vitilised the second hand Leica market.... but the relative size of the RF market vs the total market is shrinking and I wouldn´t be surprised if the average age of the Leica users hasn´t gone up.
I am not in any way negative towards Leica and they have probably done what they have been able to but overall the camera industry has not embranced the RF segment lately and especially not when it comes to the fascinating digital possibilities. Epson tried but left the market and the Ricoh GR digital which is close has only had limited success. There are some interesting things in the pipeline such as the Sigma DP1 but overall we have seen a shrinking RF market which I think is sad given the great characteristics of those types of cameras.
So, in my opinion Leica will be a very small nische player in a very small segment for specialists, enthusiasts and collectors (and nothing wrong with that!!) unless there will be some significant moves from the bigger players in the industry embracing the RF segment.
I hope we will see some interesting developments coming around the corner which could help Leica build a long term sustainable market....
/j
Is it that good!?
Well, most postings here on the RFF are very positive about the M8 success story but IMHO I am not so sure....
Yes - Leicas M8 has been selling OK or even good but my feeling is that it has primarily sold within the already existing Leica community and not done much to develop and expand the RF market. You see very little Leica marketing, very few camera stores display RF models and compared with the enormous volumes growth seen in both the compact digital camera and DSLR segments I bet Leica has lost out on it´s fair share.
My feeling is that Leica has done an exceptionally good job in convincing the already convinced believers, saving the absolute market share it had and vitilised the second hand Leica market.... but the relative size of the RF market vs the total market is shrinking and I wouldn´t be surprised if the average age of the Leica users hasn´t gone up.
I am not in any way negative towards Leica and they have probably done what they have been able to but overall the camera industry has not embranced the RF segment lately and especially not when it comes to the fascinating digital possibilities. Epson tried but left the market and the Ricoh GR digital which is close has only had limited success. There are some interesting things in the pipeline such as the Sigma DP1 but overall we have seen a shrinking RF market which I think is sad given the great characteristics of those types of cameras.
So, in my opinion Leica will be a very small nische player in a very small segment for specialists, enthusiasts and collectors (and nothing wrong with that!!) unless there will be some significant moves from the bigger players in the industry embracing the RF segment.
I hope we will see some interesting developments coming around the corner which could help Leica build a long term sustainable market....
/j
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HAnkg
Well-known
Compared to Canon Leica will always be a niche player. Leica's success is not measured in it's ability to displace Canon. RF will always be a small segment of the larger market. Apple has enjoyed stupendous success recently after years of barely surviving yet it's market share remains tiny compared to the larger PC market.JonR said:
As to the comment that camera's are only being sold to Leica afficianado's and that the average age has probably increased. Well I won't speculate about average age. The average age of amateur or pro photographers who purchase expensive new equipment whether it's a $35,000 in medium format digital or $10,000 worth of Canon or Leica kit will tend to skew older as you need some success in the photo business (or some other business in the case of amatuers) to have that kind of capital.
I would bet that among photographers there are a lot of Leica fans who like myself haven't owned a Leica for years because it didn't fit the work we where doing. For color film I had moved to medium format and when I went digital Leica didn't offer an option. Until now. Current Leica sales have moved way beyond the tiny brand cultists who would'nt think of using anything else but Leica. As a matter of fact it's the high priests of the cult of Leica that have been the M8's biggest detractors (this is not meant to be a blanket statement about everyone and anyone who has criticized the M8). The M8 is Leica's first step out of the sphere of high-end fetish object and back to the business of making equipment for photographers who take photographs.
rsl
Russell
jaapv said:
I'm a natural-born skeptic who's been shooting raw files with Nikons for years now, since I sold my Leicas, Rollei, and 4 x 5 view camera and went digital. I had the same reservations about Leica's 8 bit conversions as espressogeek has.
But Jaap sent several M8 DNGs for me to compare with my D2X files. For some things, like the pictures I make on the western U.S. prairies of abandoned farms and dying towns, I prefer my D2X, but that's because of a kind of "cold" quality (not white balance) that the D2X gives me, which is part of the effect I'm after. But after playing with Jaap's M8 files in Camera Raw and Photoshop I'm convinced that Leica did a top-notch job with their non-linear compression. I pulled up lows and pulled down highs and did close examinations of high areas where you'd expect to see loss of detail. The M8 files seem as amenable to the kinds of post-capture processing we all have to do from time to time as the files from the D2X. I'm convinced that though the M8 files are different, they have as much usable quality as the "16 bit" D2X files.
As soon as Leica finds out what's making so many M8s die suddenly and fixes that problem, I'm ready to buy one.
georgef
Well-known
the question is...
...will the M8 (which I think is a fine, fine camera) bring in NEW photographers that will continue to be patrons of the brand and propagate it into the future with a new customer base?
Or will this remain with the older "born-in-film" photographers who like me have an affection for the manual focus, well crafted RFs?
I dont mean to be negative against anything specific, but one has to realise that Leica, without introducing a digital R SLR has really marginalized their market.
IMHO, I think the emergence of an SLR as good as the M8 is necessary to bring the company back.
....hmm, maybe I should be stocking on R lenses before they also dissapear of the used market
...will the M8 (which I think is a fine, fine camera) bring in NEW photographers that will continue to be patrons of the brand and propagate it into the future with a new customer base?
Or will this remain with the older "born-in-film" photographers who like me have an affection for the manual focus, well crafted RFs?
I dont mean to be negative against anything specific, but one has to realise that Leica, without introducing a digital R SLR has really marginalized their market.
IMHO, I think the emergence of an SLR as good as the M8 is necessary to bring the company back.
....hmm, maybe I should be stocking on R lenses before they also dissapear of the used market
mwooten
light user
Does anyone think that there will be any "trickle-down" from Leica?
What I mean is this; When Nikon and Canon first came out with their D-SLR's the prices were very high and the image quality was not what users truly desired. As new generations of Nikon and Canon D-SLR's have come out, the previous top of the line spec has move downward in both price and model number. The technology has become much more affordable and accessible.
Does anyone think that Leica will shift the spec of the current M8 to another camera (one that is much more affordable) when the M8's successor is released?
If they don't, then I doubt Leica will be able to gain any appreciable amount of market share.
What I mean is this; When Nikon and Canon first came out with their D-SLR's the prices were very high and the image quality was not what users truly desired. As new generations of Nikon and Canon D-SLR's have come out, the previous top of the line spec has move downward in both price and model number. The technology has become much more affordable and accessible.
Does anyone think that Leica will shift the spec of the current M8 to another camera (one that is much more affordable) when the M8's successor is released?
If they don't, then I doubt Leica will be able to gain any appreciable amount of market share.
rsl
Russell
George, It's a fair question and I don't think anyone's going to know the answer for quite a while yet. The M8 is positioned as a high-end "professional" camera, but the kind of professional who does weddings and formal portraits, etc. isn't likely to take on that kind of work with a digital rangefinder any more than he used to do work like that with a film rangefinder. Oh, I know, there'll be people who claim they're professionals and that they use rangefinders for everything from macrophotography to landscape to portraits to weddings, but SLRs, and especially the current crop of DSLRs are just too flexible in some of those situations compared with rangefinders to make that claim more than marginally plausible.
The pros who are going to use the M8 are the ones doing photojournalism or work that resembles photojournalism. The beauty of a rangefinder is that it's unobtrusive and quiet. Not long ago I was in a museum with a friend who was carrying a DSLR around his neck. I was carrying an R-D1 in my hand with the strap wrapped around my wrist. As soon as the guard saw my friend he told him that photographs weren't allowed in the museum. I chatted with the guard for about five minutes, standing less than an arm's length away, with the camera at my side and in my hand . He never said a word about pictures, and I shot a couple dozen frames before I left. With an unobtrusive rangefinder in my hand, I just didn't look like a photographer to him.
I think that right now we're mostly seeing amateurs -- probably amateurs in the true meaning of the word, which isn't a synonym for "novice" -- buying the M8. But no pro in his right mind is going to try to do serious photojournalism with the M8, considering its tendency suddenly to die right when you need it most. Once that problem is located and solved that'll probably change. Then we'll begin to find out what the long-range market is for the M8.
The pros who are going to use the M8 are the ones doing photojournalism or work that resembles photojournalism. The beauty of a rangefinder is that it's unobtrusive and quiet. Not long ago I was in a museum with a friend who was carrying a DSLR around his neck. I was carrying an R-D1 in my hand with the strap wrapped around my wrist. As soon as the guard saw my friend he told him that photographs weren't allowed in the museum. I chatted with the guard for about five minutes, standing less than an arm's length away, with the camera at my side and in my hand . He never said a word about pictures, and I shot a couple dozen frames before I left. With an unobtrusive rangefinder in my hand, I just didn't look like a photographer to him.
I think that right now we're mostly seeing amateurs -- probably amateurs in the true meaning of the word, which isn't a synonym for "novice" -- buying the M8. But no pro in his right mind is going to try to do serious photojournalism with the M8, considering its tendency suddenly to die right when you need it most. Once that problem is located and solved that'll probably change. Then we'll begin to find out what the long-range market is for the M8.
Berliner
Well-known
I have two bodies (35mm-M's) at Leica waiting for: a repair--user fault; and a VF upgrade-user desire. I was told it would take a while as there were a lot of M8's being serviced. Before the M8's intro, I had a three weeks or less turn around--once, I shipped a camera on Monday, and It was on my doorstep Friday. Now it's going on 4 weeks...still, neither has been looked at...I am patient, as they have always been highly responsive to my needs, but I WANT MY LEICAS BACK!!!
I wish nothing but continued success for Leica, even though I have no current interest in any digital camera. (I reserve the right to change my mind, at any time) I just hope they do not forget their 'other' customers...
I wish nothing but continued success for Leica, even though I have no current interest in any digital camera. (I reserve the right to change my mind, at any time) I just hope they do not forget their 'other' customers...
naos
23 Skidoo
Brought in by the 'halo' effect.....
Brought in by the 'halo' effect.....
George,
I grew up on a manul Nikon SLR (FM10). I've always had my eye on a Leica M's due to it's aesthetic qualities but never purchased one because of lack of money. I was happy for a while shooting with my Nikon then later Canon DSLR's...almost forgetting about my Leica lust.
Earlier last year I saw bits of info about the M8 and the Leica bug bit me again. I started serious research on Leica M's and decided on a MP since I had a lot of money saved up. Shortly after purchasing my MP, I sold all my Canon gear and bought an M8.
Now I've got one film body, one digital body and one 50mm lens for both. I couldn't be happier! The only major photography purchase I see myself making in the next 5-7 years is a 35mm lens for my M's.
Brought in by the 'halo' effect.....
georgef said:the question is...
...will the M8 (which I think is a fine, fine camera) bring in NEW photographers that will continue to be patrons of the brand and propagate it into the future with a new customer base?
George,
I grew up on a manul Nikon SLR (FM10). I've always had my eye on a Leica M's due to it's aesthetic qualities but never purchased one because of lack of money. I was happy for a while shooting with my Nikon then later Canon DSLR's...almost forgetting about my Leica lust.
Earlier last year I saw bits of info about the M8 and the Leica bug bit me again. I started serious research on Leica M's and decided on a MP since I had a lot of money saved up. Shortly after purchasing my MP, I sold all my Canon gear and bought an M8.
Now I've got one film body, one digital body and one 50mm lens for both. I couldn't be happier! The only major photography purchase I see myself making in the next 5-7 years is a 35mm lens for my M's.
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georgef
Well-known
naos said:George,
I grew up on a manul Nikon SLR (FM10). I've always had my eye on a Leica M's due to it's aesthetic qualities but never purchased one because of lack of money. I was happy for a while shooting with my Nikon then later Canon DSLR's...almost forgetting about my Leica lust.
Earlier last year I saw bits of info about the M8 and the Leica bug bit me again.quote]
This is almost the way I have been Naos.
I have ended up with a whole Canon pro kit (I shoot quite a bit of outdoor sports like kayaking, canoeing, edventure racing etc.) but carrying a 1D with a 17-40 onto it is quite daunting for street photos.
I saw the epson RD1 which I think (no offense) is a way better looking camera than the M8, and also less..."digital"so I am in the process of getting one from a member here. I am more excited about this one than most of the bodies I have ever bought!!!
Now back to the point, I was refering to Leica's new direction in the same sense that Caddilac in north america had to re-invent itself to capture a new generation of customers, as their loyal patrons are getting older and the brand will not survive without a new customer base.
Most new generation photographers I have either taught (I teach digital capture) or met do not have my affinity toward manual focusing, rangefinding, or the kind of craftmanship Leica and the sort produce. There is nothing wrong with that, but Leica needs to pay attention to them as they are the next market...and IMHO, a Leica DSLR is very much required to reach and inspire them like the M3 and Bessa did for me.
Meltzer
Newbie
Boom time
Boom time
The camera produces beautiful images. The company seems to be overwhelmed with sales and coding modifications. And, it's no wonder; the camera may just be the finest 35mm digital on the market. Though, of course, I haven't shot with all that's out there, so I am not actually qualified to arrive at that conclusion. It's just a feeling. A good feeling.
S.
Boom time
The camera produces beautiful images. The company seems to be overwhelmed with sales and coding modifications. And, it's no wonder; the camera may just be the finest 35mm digital on the market. Though, of course, I haven't shot with all that's out there, so I am not actually qualified to arrive at that conclusion. It's just a feeling. A good feeling.
S.
rsl
Russell
georgef said:
Are any of your students interested in street photography or photojournalism? If so it shouldn't be too hard to swing them toward the rangefinder. If you show them how to set a rangefinder to f/8 and approximately hyperfocal distance, depending on how close in you plan to work, then show them that with the unobtrusive camera set up that way all you have to do is lift the camera and press the button to get the shot, they'll find that nothing else can take the place of a rangefinder. (1) The DSLR is too bulky and intimidating, (2) If the DSLR is in point and shoot mode it takes too long for the camera to focus and it's too likely to focus on the wrong thing, and (3) when the shot goes off the mirror slap is likely to draw attention and put you out of business.
I agree with you, George. Most entry level photographers I meet want to do things the easy way, even if the easy way doesn't give them the best results. It's a tendency worth fighting.
georgef
Well-known
rsl said:
I am with you there R. On that note, I should be getting my RD-1 next week. One of my first tests will be to take a shot, side by side with the same FOV of a street scene with that and a nocton 40 1.4 and my Canon 1D series with a 17-40L. If all I have heard is remotely true, the results should make for an interesting topic in my next class
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
rsl said:
I doubt that Leica sees pros as their main market - there simply are not enough professionals with a workflow that needs a rangefinder. Yes- they will appreciate the enhancement of the marque that comes with professional users and many pro's will buy a camera to use when they ARE amateurs, outside their paying job and for fun. But the money for Leica is the accomplished hobby photographer - the original amateur- market.
HAnkg
Well-known
jaapv said:
The vast majority of purchasers of every "pro" level camera whether it's from Canon or Nikon are amateurs. Without the revenue form amatuers the $5,000+ Dslr's would not exist or if they did exist would cost a hell of a lot more as they would have to recover development costs from a much smaller market.
Rangefinders are no longer a mainstream product. Many pros have one in addition to their main equipment either for personal use or for special situations. When everything went digital it narrowed the occaisions when RF might be used. The M8 now brings RF into the digital arena reclaiming the RF niche that was lost becuse of lack of a digital option -but it still will never come close to replacing SLR's as the most popular platform.