Electro 35 GT: Flash Metering question

[kiss-o-matic]

I scored one of these w/ the Yashika ES-20 flash. It's got a nice chart on the top, showing me how far I should be away from the subject at each aperture. I'm wondering if it actually meters differently when the flash is connected though. I got a few shots off the other day but way more to go before I can develop the roll to figure out if I'm exposing right.

I'm worried about quite low light at a wider aperture. Seems the shutter would be on the slower end, tending to over expose.

Trial and error will probably tell me a lot, but if anyone has an experience, I'm all ears.

 

[Frontman]

I scored one of these w/ the Yashika ES-20 flash. It's got a nice chart on the top, showing me how far I should be away from the subject at each aperture. I'm wondering if it actually meters differently when the flash is connected though. I got a few shots off the other day but way more to go before I can develop the roll to figure out if I'm exposing right.

I'm worried about quite low light at a wider aperture. Seems the shutter would be on the slower end, tending to over expose.

Trial and error will probably tell me a lot, but if anyone has an experience, I'm all ears.

On your GT the camera will not meter when the flash synch setting is on, which is done by turning the ring around the front of the lens. The camera will revert to 1/30 shutter speed, and the proper aperture for that speed is shown on the graph on the flash. You can experiment with fill flash by simply leaving the ring set to A. You can compensate by adjusting the ASA dial on top of the camera.

 

[KoNickon]

There's a cryptic reference in the Yashica Guy's website about flash not synching in A at the highest shutter speeds; don't know what that's about: http://www.yashica-guy.com/document/g-manual.html

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Okay, pulling my head out, I did what I should have done and read the manual since this set did come with one. (A nice piece of history I might add!).

which is done by turning the ring around the front of the lens.

According to the manual, this is matching the red arrow mark on the under side of the aperture ring to the film speed. Right now, I've got ISO 50 in there, so that puts me at F2.8. The manual says to shoot within 5 meters.

So, if this mark is set to the same notch the film speed is set at, it will not meter and shoot at 1/30?

For fill flash, they just have a guide. It says if it's sunny, shoot between F11 and F16 w/ ASA 100, F5.6 to F8 for cloudy, and F4 to F5.6 indoors. Should I bother w/ the length guide on the flash when I'm using it for fill?

I need to get out and mess around a bit I suppose. I'm going to Burning Man, and will be using this guy during the day. It is as sunny as you can imagine. Lots of people wearing hats though, so wanted to fill. I assume I'll just do F16 even w/ ISO 50, and the flash on and be fine. Hard to simulate though, you know.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

When you set the GT to "Flash" the camera is going to use 1/30th and the f/stop you set. Period. No metering. That is, the camera is assuming that the ambient light is low and the flash will illuminate the subject.

It's not like the flash automation on today's cameras.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

There's a cryptic reference in the Yashica Guy's website about flash not synching in A at the highest shutter speeds; don't know what that's about: http://www.yashica-guy.com/document/g-manual.html

That reference is

All these models in the G group will synch Strobe in the AUTO setting at all but the highest shutter speeds for outdoor fill light.

This is talking about fill-flash outdoors. Works great for me at all shutter speeds with GSN/GTN/GX.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

You lost me w/ your follow up. If I get the flash to shoot, the camera's shutter speed is 1/30. So how does the fill-flash outdoors work? I'm going to be potentially using this in about the brightest light you can imagine (except for shooting directly at the sun). F16 at 1/30s with ISO50 film is going to over expose a bit I think.

 

[KoNickon]

Leave the setting on Auto rather than moving it to the flash setting. In Auto the camera will use whatever shutter speed the Auto setting prescribes.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Okay, another bone head move on my side. It's the GX, not the GT. This is probably all the same though. I read the English manual and I think I have it set. For fill flash during the day, just use the guide.

 

[LunoLuno]

If your GX is fully functional, you don't have to worry anything about it. Just shoot away and your GX will automatically adust its shutter speed by itself.

One of the major differences between the original G series (GS, GT etc) and the newer GL/GX series cameras is that the latter can now meter flashlight and can automatically adjust its shutter speed according to it. If the flashlight itself is sufficient enough for the proper exposure, the camera will automatically close its shutter at its highest speed, which is 1/500s. In the case of the flashlight alone is not sufficient enough, your GX will drag its shutter until the deficit of exposure is supplemented by the available light.

Luno

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...7o/s1600/Electro%2035%20GL%20Flash%20w860.gif

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

kiss-o-matic, I suggest you read up on the basics for daylight fill flash. All this can get a little complicated. I believe it's most practical with a thyristor auto-flash, one of a little later vintage than the ES-20.

And, by the way, do you have the ES-20 or the ES-20-Auto? I believe the manual says they work a little differently on the GX. Finally, I assume you have the GX instruction book .

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

For the immediate future, I will be using this for fill only, and during the day, so hopefully it will work as Luno says. I need to go finish my test roll, although I'm not sure if I can get it developed in time. They are slow as molasses w/ B&W at my local lab.

As for your inquiry, I have the ES-20 Auto. The GX has the manual which I have read through. It's the Japanese manual, but from what I can tell, it's fine. (It's actually a nice set -- the GX + case, complete w/ the box, manual, and all the pieces. ES-20 w/ the box, manual, and all it's pieces). It did say, for fill flash in day light, just make sure it's shooting either F11 or F16. That's literally the extent of it. 🙂

And if you didn't notice, I'm not the most knowledgeable on fill flash. I've done it before, but it's usually w/ a DSLR where I can control everything, and it takes me several tries to tweak everything just right.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

Kiss-o-matic, the ES20-Auto has some special automation with the GX. The usual instructions for fill-flash do not require f/11 or f/16 so the special automation may be doing something. I prefer a thyristor auto-flash of a later vintage; with these, fill-flash is pretty easy.

 

[LunoLuno]

Kiss-o-matic, the ES20-Auto has some special automation with the GX. The usual instructions for fill-flash do not require f/11 or f/16 so the special automation may be doing something. I prefer a thyristor auto-flash of a later vintage; with these, fill-flash is pretty easy.

ColSebastianMoran, the GX doesn't have any exclusive automation for fill-flash. The aperture setting at F11 is recommended just because it is the most reasonable setting for filling the shadow in daylight for the GX, and other setting is very likely to lead to a failure unless the user is knowledgeable and immensely careful about the exposure. When I read the GX's manual some years ago, I felt that the instructions about fill-flash in the manual was rather unkind or too simple. But with hindsight I think it was the best instructions they could give in the manual. With the GX, changing its aperture affects much greater than you expect on its fill ratio. With the recommended setting at F11, it will give you the fill that is equivalent to shooting with a thyrister flash at -0.5~-1.5ev setting. However, just opening up a single stop from the recommended aperture may lead to the fill being too subtle or the picture itself beeing overexposed by the available light.

The FPS system that was newly installed in the newer Electros (GX/GL) was very innovative and useful for flash photography. It enabled people to choose from an wider aperture range as long as they want to use it as key light. However, an usual old (new for the GX) thyrister flash can do better job when used for fill in daylight. You can usually chose from several aperture settings and you can easily estimate the fill ratio. Yes, the major drawback of using the dedicated flash and depending on the GX's flash-auto is that you can't easily estimate or adjust the fill ratio.

Luno

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

Thanks, LunoLuno. Yes, I was confused a bit about the ES-20 Auto. I tried for a while to find one and gave up.

I agree that daylight fill-flash with the GX is easier with a conventional thyrister flash.

So, what is the added function with the special ES-20 Auto flash? vs. any plain-vanilla thyrister flash or the older ES-20 flash?

 

[LunoLuno]

Thanks, LunoLuno. Yes, I was confused a bit about the ES-20 Auto. I tried for a while to find one and gave up.

I agree that daylight fill-flash with the GX is easier with a conventional thyrister flash.

So, what is the added function with the special ES-20 Auto flash? vs. any plain-vanilla thyrister flash or the older ES-20 flash?

Basically, a '35GX plus ES-20 Auto' is equivalent to an Electro (GS/GT etc) with a thyrister flash that has a wider range of aperture setting capability. With that combo you can chose from any aperture between F1.7 and F16 including its intermediate settings. Or you can aim the flash off the subject and aim it toward the ceiling, wall etc. The practical function of FPS itself is almost the same as that of 'TTL-OTF Direct Flash Metering' incorporated in the OM-2 of Olympus SLR though it's not either TTL nor OTF.

You may think like "Why the hell the manual recommends limited aperture settings for fill-flash use then?". But this is just because some other factors (lighting conditions, lack of manual control etc) doesn't allow it, and any further explanation for it would be very likely to become too complicated and misleading for an ordinary user or even for those with good eperience of flash photography, I suppose.

So, IMHO, if you are looking for an ES-20 auto for 'key light' use, I think it's worth it. However, if you are going to use it mainly for 'flash fill', I don't think it's worth unless the sample you find is extremely cheap or you buy it for collection purpose. Full-output, that is what ES-20 auto is usually doing in the condition of daylight fill (unless the subject you are shooting is placed very close to you), and any old, batterd and cheap GN20 non-auto flash can even do the same job.

Luno

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

LunoLuno, thanks. So, does the GX quench the ES-20 Auto flash output when it's seen enough? Or, is it that the GX is quick enough to close the shutter when the sensor has seen enough light? There is that extra contact in the hot shoe.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Thanks for that. Hmm... I'm a little apprehensive about using it now. Haha. I will take it with me and hopefully do a roll and get it processed before I go to the event (Burning Man). The lighting there is almost always perfect, but hats which cause shade are a definite hurdle.

The flash kind of fell into my lap. It was an auction, and I put in what I thought was a rather ridiculous bid of roughly $115 or so, and wound up winning for just under that. The flash seems pretty rare, and everything was boxed w/ all the pieces...including the enviornmentally unfriendly styrofoam. I think it's a nice collector's set.

Honestly though, I've not had the weather to simulate what it's going to be out there. Perhaps I will get in a day before I go, but who knows. Been over cast for a month here.

 

[LunoLuno]

LunoLuno, thanks. So, does the GX quench the ES-20 Auto flash output when it's seen enough? Or, is it that the GX is quick enough to close the shutter when the sensor has seen enough light? There is that extra contact in the hot shoe.

Yes, the GX quenches the flash output of the ES-20 Auto when it has seen enough light. The command is sent via that extra electrical contact on the hotshoe. The GX closes the shutter when it has seen enough but the mechanical process of closing the shutter blades is no quick enough as for blocking the flashlight.

Thanks for that. Hmm... I'm a little apprehensive about using it now. Haha. I will take it with me and hopefully do a roll and get it processed before I go to the event (Burning Man). The lighting there is almost always perfect, but hats which cause shade are a definite hurdle.

The flash kind of fell into my lap. It was an auction, and I put in what I thought was a rather ridiculous bid of roughly $115 or so, and wound up winning for just under that. The flash seems pretty rare, and everything was boxed w/ all the pieces...including the enviornmentally unfriendly styrofoam. I think it's a nice collector's set.

Honestly though, I've not had the weather to simulate what it's going to be out there. Perhaps I will get in a day before I go, but who knows. Been over cast for a month here.

You don't have to feel apprehensive about using it. As I wrote in my first post, you follow the instructions and the GX will do the rest. Just be careful about the distance to the subject. If the subject is located furter than 4 meters, the effect of the fill is likely to be too subtle.

The complete kit of the GX including original boxes for the price of about 'Ichi-man-yen' seems a good deal. Congrats and enjoy shooting the Electro. 🙂

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Yep, will do!

I will get used to using the flash, but not sure if I will use it for this project. Might do a few rolls, but I can't develop and test until the whole event is over. So, I'd be going in w/ very little practice. I did a test roll w/ my son, at about sunset. Shooting around F11 was good... anything wider and he was over exposed. Distance played a roll of course as well. So, not totally confident at the moment.

Perfect camera for day time though, and I think when it's all said and done, it will get the most action of the 4 cameras I'm taking.