End of the CCD Leica M's

Timmyjoe said:
Please don't let this devolves into another CCD vs CMOS thread, which was absolutely not my intent in starting this thread, let's just all agree that CCD and CMOS sensors are apples and oranges, and some people like apples and some people prefer oranges, but there is nothing wrong with either of them, and one is not "better" than another, they just have a different look that some prefer over the other.
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One is better than the other. The market spoke. Except for exotic instruments and a small subset of medium frame digital cameras and, name one new camera (besides the M9 family) that uses CCD technology.

Think about this. If you were a product manager at any camera company and your employment depended on increasing market share and net profits, would you use a CCD sensor in a new product?

But CCD vs CMOS was never the point.

The M9 CCD look is real and has to do with the IR filter bandwidth characteristics and the bandwidth characteristics of the R,G and B filters on the color filter array. As a matched set these passive elements work together to produce aesthetically excellent and unique color rendering.

In fact, Leica claims one of the reasons it took so long to develop a replacement M9 family-sensor array was to duplicate how the filters work together when one one of them (IR) had to change.
 
JMQ said:
Mervyn, do you know if the new non-corrodable MM sensor is available or are they replacing with the corrodable sensor? Thanks, Jean-Marc
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I was told that Leica NJ grossly underestimated the volume when they offer free sensor replacement, therefore they have to order new chips instead of existing ones. The new sensor should have some improvements. They offer a huge discount if you choose to "upgrade" to CMOS MM.
 
willie_901 said:
One is better than the other. The market spoke. Except for exotic instruments and a small subset of medium frame digital cameras and, name one new camera (besides the M9 family) that uses CCD technology.

Think about this. If you were a product manager at any camera company and your employment depended on increasing market share and net profits, would you use a CCD sensor in a new product?

But CCD vs CMOS was never the point.

The M9 CCD look is real and has to do with the IR filter bandwidth characteristics and the bandwidth characteristics of the R,G and B filters on the color filter array. As a matched set these passive elements work together to produce aesthetically excellent and unique color rendering.

In fact, Leica claims one of the reasons it took so long to develop a replacement M9 family-sensor array was to duplicate how the filters work together when one one of them (IR) had to change.
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Willie,

I agree: it is just business.

Know that with some files that I approach 24x36 print size and I'm getting medium format results easily and perhaps the resolution and tonality of even large format on some images.

I'm already kinda broke printing this large. How much more of a camera do I need? Kinda crazy how good a M-246 is.

BTW I do think the CCD nails the midrange of the larger formats. The CMOS definately has a better roll off in the highlights and more shadow detail, but to me the mids are scooped. I know everything can be changed in post, but I tend to minimize post and try to nail everything at the time of exposure: kinda like how a large format shooter would for contact printing.

Do I really need a more advanced camera or one I just love warts and all.

Cal
 
willie_901 said:
One is better than the other. The market spoke. Except for exotic instruments and a small subset of medium frame digital cameras and, name one new camera (besides the M9 family) that uses CCD technology.
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Willie, that's exactly what I'm talking about. "Better" has nothing to do with it. It amazes me that some folks can't wrap their brains around that.

DIFFERENT, a CCD renders DIFFERENT than a CMOS sensor. Not better, not worse, DIFFERENT. And some folks, myself included, like the way a CCD sensor renders certain images. And for us, it is sad that acquiring a 35mm equivalent CCD sensor camera has just become more difficult because one of the very few manufacturers who still made them, has stopped.

I use CMOS cameras for 95% of my work, but there are certain images that I much prefer the way a CCD sensor renders the light. DIFFERENT Horses for DIFFERENT Courses.

Your argument is like saying Richard Avedon's medium format work was "better" than James Nachtwey's 35mm work which was "better" than Ansel Adams large format work. It's a ridiculous argument, they were all DIFFERENT and used their art to portray DIFFERENT things, not "better" or worse, DIFFERENT.
 
jsrockit said:
But look at the posts towards the end of this... the sensors don;t seem to be in great supply. If you like the camera that much, I'd get on a list. If not, then there is always upgrading to a CMOS version.
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John,

There seems to be a cronic shortage of sensors that is a constant bottleneck. Understand that on one hand Leica can't dedicate all its resources to expedite repairing cameras at a loss. I don't ever expect an abundance or oversupply of replacement sensors. Understand that this is just business, but I hope to leverage the above to my advantage (see below).

As far as upgrades go, I do like the M-246, but Leica kinda cheesed out in one regard. While the M-246 is 24 MP it is only 12-bit, while my Monochrom is only 18 MP, but 14 bit. 24MPx12=288 MB files. 16MPx16=252 MB files.

Meanwhile the SL is 24MPx14 Bit for 336 MB files. If you want to print mucho big and medium or large format resolution and tonality matter the the added size of the files is a big huge deal.

Mark Cuban said, "Go big or don't go." Then add on top of that Leica is likely to make a monochrome version of the SL. For me it isn't a big enough jump to upgrade to a M-246, but to a SLM that is a different story.

Also because autofocus would be an asset; then add onto that I own a 50 Lux-R "E60." which to me is like a a F1.4 Noctilux.

Time is my friend. If my timeline and thinking is correct a SLM might get announced this fall. Perhaps I'm delusional, but at least I'm happy. LOL.

If Leica is reading this tell the CEO that a SLM would also compel me to also somehow acquire a SL also. For me it would be a game changer and I would sell some of my many kits. Somehow though I would like to keep the MM though because it does have unique rendering. Anyways from day-trading-timing is everything, but it is a ballsy bet.

Time is my friend.

Cal
 
Oh, and I think this is good news for those of us who already own M9-derived cameras, because it ensures a supply of replacement sensors.

As soon as I get back from this trip to China, I'm shipping my very badly corroded M9-P and sensor to Leica.
 
jsrockit said:
I know where you guys are coming from, but I wouldn't trust Leica to give this offer infinitely.
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John,

Good point, but it is still early. I think it would be worse for Leica's reputation to discontinue the sensor replacement program prematurely, especially when compounded by the fact of long waits and cronic replacement sensor shortages.

If there was a deadline or cutoff I'm certain that Leica would have to give an announcement that had a reasonable lead time.

Meanwhile I get to use my camera over the summer, and I maintain my hopes for a SLM. BTW I used my MM a lot and I already think I got my money's worth.

Cal
 
Calzone said:
John,

Good point, but it is still early. I think it would be worse for Leica's reputation to discontinue the sensor replacement program prematurely, especially when compounded by the fact of long waits and cronic replacement sensor shortages.

If there was a deadline or cutoff I'm certain that Leica would have to give an announcement that had a reasonable lead time.

Meanwhile I get to use my camera over the summer, and I maintain my hopes for a SLM. BTW I used my MM a lot and I already think I got my money's worth.

Cal
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I'm sending mine in, but not til October or so. If it needs a sensor replacement and sits there waiting all winter, that's OK.

John
 
johnwolf said:
I'm sending mine in, but not til October or so. If it needs a sensor replacement and sits there waiting all winter, that's OK.

John
Click to expand...

John,

I figure about the same. I have other cameras, but I would like to use mine over the summer. In another post though it was mentioned that at this point there is a waiting list that one could get on where Leica will call you to send in your camera so in the meantime you still can use it.

The above was about and in reference to Leica New Jersey. I will likely confirm to make sure this is not a rumor.

Around February of next year my camera will be 4 years old. Bought it new, but had to wait 5 months. Anyways Leicas are worth the wait. The original Monochrome is still a great camera, warts and all. After 4 years of use a sensor replacement and factory CLA is pretty cool.

Cal
 
Cal. The problem about waiting too long is that Leica may no longer offer the sensor replacement but the 'upgrade' to a CMOS camera.
 
Huss said:
Cal. The problem about waiting too long is that Leica may no longer offer the sensor replacement but the 'upgrade' to a CMOS camera.
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Huss,

Thanks for your post. I didn't consider that. Time to obsess a bit. LOL.

Anyways my gut feeling is that Leica will announce a SLM in the fall. My reasoning is that the tooling costs nothing because the SL already exists; the timeline follows the M-240/M-246 release; and it seems like just good business to keep the monochrome market cornered and covered. The costs really are just some development costs and not tooling and it expands on what Leica already has: market share; tooling; reputation. It also follows the trend that they started and originated. Color first: B&W later.

I hope I'm not delusional here, but if I was forced to upgrade, and if it was to a SLM I could be very happy.

It definitely is a bit of a gamble, and I am very thankful that my friends here are making sure I understand all the risks.

Truth be told I find the risk of my speculation exciting, but under any contingency be it just a sensor replacement, an forced upgrade to a M-246, or a opportunity of lightning striking twice and an upgrade towards a SLM: I will be happy with any choice.

I think the ideal situation would be getting a sensor replacement, somehow getting a SLM, and then a SL. Call me a greedy American, but I have so many kits that I could swing two out of the three cameras, and I would justify it because it would be a game changer.

Thanks again for watching my back. Also know I believe in "Divine Intervention" because I seem to have the best luck. Many remarkable things seem to happen to me, and it is beyond just having good luck.

Cal
 
jsrockit said:
Do they currently offer the regular SL in this offer?
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John,

I don't know for a fact, but basically it is like the game show "Let's Make A Deal." LOL.

I am an armchair economist, and I believe that I have some bankster blood in me from my mother's family. I would have to crunch the numbers. Too bad I couldn't write a futures contract to hedge my position and create a spread to cover all the contingencies. LOL. Anyways cameras may not be investments but they sure are commodities.

I do not see why Leica would not offer me credit towards any camera that is currently in production. In a way it might be less of a headache and cost less to make a deal rather than perform a sensor replacement for Leica. Both options offer "Good Will."

I have been in denial in this thread, but you know me. I also have major GAS for the SL. I could really use the autofocus for Maggie's fashion blog coverage, and it fits seamlessly with my M-lenses, my 50 Lux-R "E60" and even my 65/3.5 Viso/Elmar lens. Don't forget all those rare LTM lenses that I have collected... Even the 45/1.9 Pentax-L the only LTM lens that Pentax ever made.

Basically the SL is a great camera for me. One thing that I love the about the SL is it does not have an anti alias filter. I really hate that my Nikon D3X has an anti alias filter and I am/was considering sending it to a specialty company to have the AA stripped out. I can see gearing down and then gearing up to shoot a SL/SLM pair. The resolution is high enough that I probably don't need medium format anymore, but keeping and maintaining the stable of M-bodies and R-bodies makes sense.

If Leica is listening, I would get the AF 50 Lux when it gets released (Expected release later this year. I expect in the fall). Anyways I think Leica marketing has been particularly targeting me. With the Monochrom they built me my dream camera. Today it remains a great camera for me and my style. I love it warts and all, but the SL and especially the SLM looks like they are targeting me personally again. Why else would the hold off releasing a SLM and the AF 50 Lux together unless it was to drive me crazy. Anyways makes sense to me. LOL.

The large size, the added bulk and especially the grip seems like Leica has been following our threads. Leica even made a handstrap so it closely resembles my Nikon F3P.

Anyways I would still need a dedicated B&W digital, but know that the SL interests me. Seems like yet again Leica is building me a dream camera.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I already bought the Leica M-mount to T-mount adapter taking advantage of a good price.

Cal
 
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