xwhatsit
Well-known
Hi there,
Gave developing a shot and I love it, the convenience is brilliant. Unfortunately scanning them in is not only tedious and boring (I program computers all day, don't need to sit in front of another screen for hours!), but it requires expensive scanning hardware to get half-decent results. My Canon 500f flatbed does OK for its cheap price, but it'll never be amazing. Plus, if I want hard copies, I can take the digital files to get printed (like with a digicam) but their prints are always pretty crappy and I don't have a high-resolution original to begin with.
Anyhow, I've seen wet prints from B&W, and the quality is astounding. Cheap enlargers are everywhere on the local auction site. I'd like to give it a go -- I can always scan the print back in too.
Finding enlarger comparisons is difficult. There seems a paucity of information compared to other aspects of photography.
Right now I'm looking at two Dursts; one is a F60 with a Rodenstock Trinar 75mm. Although it has a 35mm neg carrier, the 75mm lens is too big for 35mm negs, right? It looks in good condition, comes with more extra hardware (developing trays, print dryer etc.), and is easier to pick up.
The other one is a Durst S609, which I can't find much information about. There's lots of sites covering the 609, which is quite a lot older than the S609 and looks very different. This S609 looks much more heavy duty than the F60. It has 35mm neg carrier, and a Minolta E. Rokkor 50mm & 75mm, which I gather are very good lenses. It's more difficult to pick up this enlarger though.
Any thoughts on these two models?
Many thanks.
Gave developing a shot and I love it, the convenience is brilliant. Unfortunately scanning them in is not only tedious and boring (I program computers all day, don't need to sit in front of another screen for hours!), but it requires expensive scanning hardware to get half-decent results. My Canon 500f flatbed does OK for its cheap price, but it'll never be amazing. Plus, if I want hard copies, I can take the digital files to get printed (like with a digicam) but their prints are always pretty crappy and I don't have a high-resolution original to begin with.
Anyhow, I've seen wet prints from B&W, and the quality is astounding. Cheap enlargers are everywhere on the local auction site. I'd like to give it a go -- I can always scan the print back in too.
Finding enlarger comparisons is difficult. There seems a paucity of information compared to other aspects of photography.
Right now I'm looking at two Dursts; one is a F60 with a Rodenstock Trinar 75mm. Although it has a 35mm neg carrier, the 75mm lens is too big for 35mm negs, right? It looks in good condition, comes with more extra hardware (developing trays, print dryer etc.), and is easier to pick up.
The other one is a Durst S609, which I can't find much information about. There's lots of sites covering the 609, which is quite a lot older than the S609 and looks very different. This S609 looks much more heavy duty than the F60. It has 35mm neg carrier, and a Minolta E. Rokkor 50mm & 75mm, which I gather are very good lenses. It's more difficult to pick up this enlarger though.
Any thoughts on these two models?
Many thanks.
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
I am a "techie" and former IT professional who feels the same.
New technology isn't necessarily better, just different.
Film technology is great, and lots more fun.
Sorry, I am not familiar with those particular model enlargers.
I'd choose something solid and stable and not too uncommon,
a model for which parts and accessories are readily available.
Enjoy your darkroom!
Chris
New technology isn't necessarily better, just different.
Film technology is great, and lots more fun.
Sorry, I am not familiar with those particular model enlargers.
I'd choose something solid and stable and not too uncommon,
a model for which parts and accessories are readily available.
Enjoy your darkroom!
Chris
tj01
Well-known
75mm should just be perfect for your 135 film. 50mm might be a bit too wide and might not focus properly if it didnt come with the enlarger. Any shorter and you might get very short enlarging times (2 -10 seconds). Durst have a very good build and quality reputation, so can't go wrong. See if you can find one with those helicoil focusing rather than bellows. Don't go cheap on lenses.
xwhatsit
Well-known
My thoughts exactly. It's nice being able to think this way, as when everybody is desperately upgrading to the latest and greatest, you can take your pick of such a wide variety of other outdated technologies. Plus it's fascinating to see how people used to make things work before microcontrollers; the clockwork and mechanical linkages inside my Lynx are amazing.
I heard 50mm was the thing for 135; people talked about only being able to get up to 8x10 prints with a 75mm lens on with 35mm negs. Of course I don't plan to print any bigger than this initially, I doubt my poor negs will endure that sort of enlargement gracefully.
I asked for some advice about this on APUG too, and as they pointed out, enlarger lenses are cheap as chips, so maybe I needn't worry about that too much at first.
Thanks for the replies
FrankHarries
Well-known
Oh no, you SHOULD worry about the enlarger lens in the first place!!! Unless you take your pictures with a crappy lens - you will not get out great pictures out of a crappy enlager lens, even if the negs are superb! Don't ruin all that fun!
For 35mm Negs you need a 50 mm enlag.lens, for MF a 80 mm one. Don't take that lens you mentioned - look for a lens with 6 glases like: Rodenstock Rodagon, Nikon EL, Schneider Componon (you will not need the expensive Apo - version).
If you save money here, you save at the wrong end. And those lenses are not that expensive when you buy them used!
For 35mm Negs you need a 50 mm enlag.lens, for MF a 80 mm one. Don't take that lens you mentioned - look for a lens with 6 glases like: Rodenstock Rodagon, Nikon EL, Schneider Componon (you will not need the expensive Apo - version).
If you save money here, you save at the wrong end. And those lenses are not that expensive when you buy them used!
xwhatsit
Well-known
Yep, I gathered that; when I said I needn't worry too much about the enlarger lens, I meant I needn't worry about the enlarger lens fitted to the particular model I choose to buy, as these days it seems very cheap to get a very high quality lens after the fact.
The El Nikkors are supposed to be the goods, aren't they -- I wonder how the E Rokkor stacks up. I've seen people lauding it too.
The El Nikkors are supposed to be the goods, aren't they -- I wonder how the E Rokkor stacks up. I've seen people lauding it too.
dap
Established
The Nikkors are really nice and relatively cheap on the second hand market. Like any lens lineup some lenses are known for being exceptional (50/2.8, 63mm, 150mm) while others are known as being only average (50/4, 75mm, etc).
As far as the Rokkor is concerned, I used to have a 50mm/2.8 minolta that could easily hold it's own against the Nikons (unfortunately it died an early death due to fungus - not a fault of the lens).
Other bargain brands to look out for would be - 50/2.8 Fujinon EX, 50/2.8 or 65/3.5 Computar (watch out for lens separation on these), some of the 50/2.8 Durst Neonons (some were made by Pentax and are very nice lenses). You could also just pony up for a Rodenstock or a schneider (not that much more expensive than a Nikkor in today's market). I would stick to a lens that falls between 50-65mm for 35mm format film.
KenR
Well-known
I had a Durst F60 that I purchaed new in the late 1970's. It was quite well made and took a beating as I had to assemble and disassemble it before each use as it was a kitchen/bathroom enlarger in my apartment (wife wanted kitchen to be able to be used for cooking - can you imagine that). I sold it years later to buy a 4x5 enlarger.
It came with two condensers - one for 35mm and one for 6x6cm. Make sure that you get BOTH as I am not certain that they are still available, even on **bay. The enlarger could make 11x14 prints from a 35mm neg using a 50mm lens when it was cranked to the very top of the column. I am not certain that you will be able to make an 8x10 print using a 75mm lens as the column may not be tall enough.
Good luck.
It came with two condensers - one for 35mm and one for 6x6cm. Make sure that you get BOTH as I am not certain that they are still available, even on **bay. The enlarger could make 11x14 prints from a 35mm neg using a 50mm lens when it was cranked to the very top of the column. I am not certain that you will be able to make an 8x10 print using a 75mm lens as the column may not be tall enough.
Good luck.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
There are issues to look for with certain enlarging lenses. I used to be a darkroom salesman for a large NYC camera store. Nikkors were great, but they had quality control issues. Sometimes it took an exchange of 1 or 2 to get a good one. I had 2 Nikkor enlarging lenses that had issues with the optics. There were not centered correctly. I finally settled on a Leitz 50mm Focotar, which I consider one of the best enlarging lenses for 35mm film. There are others of course, but the Leitz really was a great companion to my Leica lenses and brought out details in the negatives that I never knew even existed.
A 75mm enlarging lens will be fine for 35mm film, though it might limit how big your final prints may due to the extra enlarging height. Think of it as a telephoto lens.
Dursts were great enlargers though not very popular here in the States. Parts were sometimes hard to get.
A 75mm enlarging lens will be fine for 35mm film, though it might limit how big your final prints may due to the extra enlarging height. Think of it as a telephoto lens.
Dursts were great enlargers though not very popular here in the States. Parts were sometimes hard to get.
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Dwig
Well-known
Contestant #1:
The F60 was a modest entry level model from Durst. Still, its quite capable of doing good work with the proper lens. The 75mm Trinar lens is an adequate entry level lens, but not in the class of the better Roedenstock lenses or the Schneider Componons and EL-Nikkors. The 75mm focal length will work for 35mm, though a 50mm lens is the conventional choice. With the longer 75, the F60 will have rather limited enlargement capablilities. You might be able to get an 8x10 out of 35mm with a 75mm lens, but that is a big maybe.
Contestant #2:
I'm not "hands on" familiar with the S609 but I understand it to be a "better" model (stiffer, more even illumination, ...) than the F60. I'm also not "hand on" familiar with the E-Rokkor lenses, but have heard that they are rather good. That another post says their experience puts them in the league of the excellent EL-Nikkors does not surprise me.
When it comes to enlargers, the lens is vastly more important than the enlarger itself. Almost all flaws in the enlarger (stiffness, smooth focusing, eveness of illumination, brightness, ...) can be compensated for successfully. There is nothing you can do to compensate for a poor lens except to replace it.
The F60 was a modest entry level model from Durst. Still, its quite capable of doing good work with the proper lens. The 75mm Trinar lens is an adequate entry level lens, but not in the class of the better Roedenstock lenses or the Schneider Componons and EL-Nikkors. The 75mm focal length will work for 35mm, though a 50mm lens is the conventional choice. With the longer 75, the F60 will have rather limited enlargement capablilities. You might be able to get an 8x10 out of 35mm with a 75mm lens, but that is a big maybe.
Contestant #2:
I'm not "hands on" familiar with the S609 but I understand it to be a "better" model (stiffer, more even illumination, ...) than the F60. I'm also not "hand on" familiar with the E-Rokkor lenses, but have heard that they are rather good. That another post says their experience puts them in the league of the excellent EL-Nikkors does not surprise me.
When it comes to enlargers, the lens is vastly more important than the enlarger itself. Almost all flaws in the enlarger (stiffness, smooth focusing, eveness of illumination, brightness, ...) can be compensated for successfully. There is nothing you can do to compensate for a poor lens except to replace it.
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
Availability of all the negative carriers I wanted, plus other accessories and replacement parts
*at moderate cost on eBay* was a determining factor in my choice of enlarger model.
Purchased from the manufacturer or a specialist dealer these are often prohibitively expensive.
Chris
*at moderate cost on eBay* was a determining factor in my choice of enlarger model.
Purchased from the manufacturer or a specialist dealer these are often prohibitively expensive.
Chris
xwhatsit
Well-known
Thanks for all the replies guys! Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. It would seem that the S609 is almost certainly the right choice, I'll see if I can nab it.
rumbliegeos
Well-known
I own a Durst F60, which is now a back-up because I have bought a larger Saunders LPL enlarger. The F60 is a quite capable enlarger, but limited by its height. If for some reason you decide to buy the one on offer after all, I echo the advice to make sure it has the 35mm and 6X6 condensors and negative carriers. Also, its design gives it pretty stable alignment, but you should make sure the bulb is centered, which is accomplished by simply sliding the bulb unit up or down until its light is most even across the projected opening without a negative carrier in place. Great for a really small darkroom, but something that can do 6X7 is more versatile.