Ernest Leitz saved lives
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Steve M.
Veteran
I wish life were that simple. He was also a member of the Nazi party, and had contracts to supply the German army with many high quality cameras, as well as binoculars and gun sights for tanks, bombers, etc. The facts are very clear on this subject and not open to personal interpretation.
In any case, it happened a long time ago, and no one living today probably knows the back and front of what is obviously a very complicated story. Even if they did, memory is unreliable and just someone else's version of what happened. I live by the maxim that history is what you see w/ your own eyes, and what you hear w/ your own ears. Anything else is second hand information, and invariably whoever recounts it makes errors and has a bias. It's just human nature.
It would be just as true to say that the number of Jews saved is negligible to the number of people who were killed by being on the wrong end of the Leitz optics. That only covers part of the equation. How facts are assembled can change their meanings to different people. There are always at least two sides to stories. I applaud the rabbi's sleuth work and humanitarian viewpoint, but it is as if one is viewing the world with blinders on to keep out other messy areas of reality. The Nazi scientist Wernher von Braun was responsible for the design and construction of America's Apollo moon rockets. Before that, he had a very different job in Nazi Germany.
In any case, it happened a long time ago, and no one living today probably knows the back and front of what is obviously a very complicated story. Even if they did, memory is unreliable and just someone else's version of what happened. I live by the maxim that history is what you see w/ your own eyes, and what you hear w/ your own ears. Anything else is second hand information, and invariably whoever recounts it makes errors and has a bias. It's just human nature.
It would be just as true to say that the number of Jews saved is negligible to the number of people who were killed by being on the wrong end of the Leitz optics. That only covers part of the equation. How facts are assembled can change their meanings to different people. There are always at least two sides to stories. I applaud the rabbi's sleuth work and humanitarian viewpoint, but it is as if one is viewing the world with blinders on to keep out other messy areas of reality. The Nazi scientist Wernher von Braun was responsible for the design and construction of America's Apollo moon rockets. Before that, he had a very different job in Nazi Germany.
Robert Lai
Well-known
Judge people by what they do.
Judge people by what they do.
Did any German industrialist have the power to refuse to "join" the Nazi party "voluntarily" in 1930's Hitler's Germany?
Certainly, if he wanted to keep his company going, and to obtain military contracts (which were going to be enforced whether he was the owner of the company or not), he had to go along with what was politically correct at the time. Here, you need to see the man for what he is by his actions. He personally rescued many Jews from Nazi Germany.
His daughter Elsie Kuhn Leitz also tried to rescue Jews. One of them was caught at the Swiss border, and under interrogation named Elsie as her benefactor. Elsie was incarcerated by the Gestappo. Only a very large monetary ransom paid by her father secured her release. This is all well documented by Rabbi Dabba Smith. Also, when Ukranian women were forced to work at the factory as slaves, by the German military, Elsie did her best to make sure that these women had food and some semblence of decent care. Finally, when the US Army was advancing on Wetzlar, Elsie rode out on her bicycle with a white flag to tell the Americans that the town was undefended. This spared the town from shelling and needless deaths. https://www.amazon.com/Elsies-War-S...=1525627490&sr=8-3&keywords=frank+dabba+smith
Now let's look at the situation of the other German photographic giant: Carl Zeiss.
After Carl Zeiss died in 1888, the son sold his share of the company to Ernst Abbe, the physicist who was responsible for so many advances in the science of optics. Abbe continued to be a physics professor at the University of Jena. After studying sociology and law for a couple of years, Abbe introduced many benefits for the workers at Zeiss. These were unheard of in the world at the time. They included:
Paid vacations
Sick benefits
8 hour work day
Severence pay
disability and old age pensions for the workers and their families
Worker representation in management.
Abbe had complete ownership of the firm, but he transferred it to a foundation, named after Carl Zeiss. This foundation did amongst many other things:
build homes for their workers, to ensure affordable housing.
Furthermore, the foundation statutes from the first state that "there should be no discrimination on grounds of race, religion, politics, or mode of domestic life." Under the Nazis, this clause was modified on paper, but in practice everyone at Zeiss still adhered to it. This information comes from an article,
"A New Life for Zeiss", by Max Eastman, published in Reader's Digest October 1951.
The head of Carl Zeiss in the 1930s was Emanuel Goldberg, who was Jewish. One day as he was going home, the Nazis nabbed him and tied him to a large tree. He was ransomed by the Carl Zeiss firm. From there, he was spirited off to France, and eventually he made his way to Palestine (now Isreal). Other Zeiss executives who had married Jewish women were also forced out of their positions by tne Nazis. The detailed story is related in "Zeiss and Photography", by Lawrence J Gubas.
So, it is clear that the situation in Nazi Germany was not pleasant for anybody. Nevertheless the actions of many in the photographic business in Germany were noble, and humanitarian. Thus, it is by their actions that we must judge people and firms.
Judge people by what they do.
Did any German industrialist have the power to refuse to "join" the Nazi party "voluntarily" in 1930's Hitler's Germany?
Certainly, if he wanted to keep his company going, and to obtain military contracts (which were going to be enforced whether he was the owner of the company or not), he had to go along with what was politically correct at the time. Here, you need to see the man for what he is by his actions. He personally rescued many Jews from Nazi Germany.
His daughter Elsie Kuhn Leitz also tried to rescue Jews. One of them was caught at the Swiss border, and under interrogation named Elsie as her benefactor. Elsie was incarcerated by the Gestappo. Only a very large monetary ransom paid by her father secured her release. This is all well documented by Rabbi Dabba Smith. Also, when Ukranian women were forced to work at the factory as slaves, by the German military, Elsie did her best to make sure that these women had food and some semblence of decent care. Finally, when the US Army was advancing on Wetzlar, Elsie rode out on her bicycle with a white flag to tell the Americans that the town was undefended. This spared the town from shelling and needless deaths. https://www.amazon.com/Elsies-War-S...=1525627490&sr=8-3&keywords=frank+dabba+smith
Now let's look at the situation of the other German photographic giant: Carl Zeiss.
After Carl Zeiss died in 1888, the son sold his share of the company to Ernst Abbe, the physicist who was responsible for so many advances in the science of optics. Abbe continued to be a physics professor at the University of Jena. After studying sociology and law for a couple of years, Abbe introduced many benefits for the workers at Zeiss. These were unheard of in the world at the time. They included:
Paid vacations
Sick benefits
8 hour work day
Severence pay
disability and old age pensions for the workers and their families
Worker representation in management.
Abbe had complete ownership of the firm, but he transferred it to a foundation, named after Carl Zeiss. This foundation did amongst many other things:
build homes for their workers, to ensure affordable housing.
Furthermore, the foundation statutes from the first state that "there should be no discrimination on grounds of race, religion, politics, or mode of domestic life." Under the Nazis, this clause was modified on paper, but in practice everyone at Zeiss still adhered to it. This information comes from an article,
"A New Life for Zeiss", by Max Eastman, published in Reader's Digest October 1951.
The head of Carl Zeiss in the 1930s was Emanuel Goldberg, who was Jewish. One day as he was going home, the Nazis nabbed him and tied him to a large tree. He was ransomed by the Carl Zeiss firm. From there, he was spirited off to France, and eventually he made his way to Palestine (now Isreal). Other Zeiss executives who had married Jewish women were also forced out of their positions by tne Nazis. The detailed story is related in "Zeiss and Photography", by Lawrence J Gubas.
So, it is clear that the situation in Nazi Germany was not pleasant for anybody. Nevertheless the actions of many in the photographic business in Germany were noble, and humanitarian. Thus, it is by their actions that we must judge people and firms.
Pioneer
Veteran
Revisionist history is truly a wonderful thing. We can use it to turn Nazis into good guys.
This is a bunch of BS in my opinion.
This is a bunch of BS in my opinion.
Robert Lai
Well-known
How is it revisionist, when people that he rescued, or their descendents are still living in the US? This information comes from a Rabbi, after all.
How many people did your ancestors rescue from slavery in the USA to move them to Canada via the underground railroad?
It makes as much sense to say that all Americans supported slavery pre-Civil War, as to say that all Germans in the late 1930s were Nazis. Long after the Civil war was over, there was still the apartheid of segregation until the civil rights movement struggles ended them.
Anybody want to get into the genocide against the Native peoples of the Americas during the westward expansion of the USA?
Don't so easily condemn others for the crimes that we did here also.
How many people did your ancestors rescue from slavery in the USA to move them to Canada via the underground railroad?
It makes as much sense to say that all Americans supported slavery pre-Civil War, as to say that all Germans in the late 1930s were Nazis. Long after the Civil war was over, there was still the apartheid of segregation until the civil rights movement struggles ended them.
Anybody want to get into the genocide against the Native peoples of the Americas during the westward expansion of the USA?
Don't so easily condemn others for the crimes that we did here also.
Contarama
Well-known
Dont forget that other famous industrialist Porsche. Same sort of story.
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
If the same standard used to judge the past is applied today, are humans acting any better?
It is convenient to ignore the present while judging the past.
It is convenient to ignore the present while judging the past.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Holocaust is real. Hitler's Germany, French and Belgium whores, Poland haters - means the same. Jewish - you are dead.
And the only route to be alive was to escape.
Vladimir Posner, you might know him. His Jewish French mother exacaped nazis France, his father has to go through the hoops to get to USA latter (Russian Jewish socialist).
Yes, every Jewish send from Hitler Germany to USA has his life saved.
Pioneer
Veteran
I am not disputing that Nazi Germany was a horror Ko Fe. What I am disputing is this continual trend to try and revise what happened in the past by making Nazis seem wonderful.
I may like Ernst Leitz's cameras but I certainly do not like his politics. It is quite simple. Ernst Leitz was a Nazi.
And yes, though it makes no difference here, my relatives did assist slaves escape the south and slavery. I am not trying to revise anything regarding the keeping of slaves in the US though it probably makes you feel better to assume that my family did keep slaves. And unlike what occurred in Nazi Germany, the war to help end slavery in the United States involved only ourselves and did not threaten all of Europe and Russia and kill millions of non combatants.
I may like Ernst Leitz's cameras but I certainly do not like his politics. It is quite simple. Ernst Leitz was a Nazi.
And yes, though it makes no difference here, my relatives did assist slaves escape the south and slavery. I am not trying to revise anything regarding the keeping of slaves in the US though it probably makes you feel better to assume that my family did keep slaves. And unlike what occurred in Nazi Germany, the war to help end slavery in the United States involved only ourselves and did not threaten all of Europe and Russia and kill millions of non combatants.
Robert Lai
Well-known
Pioneer,
Good for your forefathers who had the morality to do what was right. I visited New England seaports many years ago (Kittery, Maine was one of them), and many of these seaside homes had secret rooms built in them, to hide runaway slaves. It took a lot of dedication and courage to take such a risk.
If you want to condemn Ernst Leitz II because he joined the Nazi party, then so be it. Nobody is saying that the Nazis were nice guys. However, with everything you have a spectrum. At one extreme you have the hard core true believers, such as the SS and the Hitler youth. At the other extreme even some Jews joined the Nazi party, just to avoid persecution. If they were found out, they were executed. Leitz never wanted to talk about his wartime experiences, so we will probably never know the entire truth of why he joined. The fact that he actually saved many Jews by getting them out of Germany is proof that he had no hatred towards them. He did this at his own expense, and at risk to his family, it should be noted.
Finally, the Jews were not the only people in the death camps. You also had the mentally ill, the physically deformed, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others who refused to join the New World Order - especially some Christian priests. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholic priests were "Aryan" Germans, but they paid the price to hold fast to their faith.
Good for your forefathers who had the morality to do what was right. I visited New England seaports many years ago (Kittery, Maine was one of them), and many of these seaside homes had secret rooms built in them, to hide runaway slaves. It took a lot of dedication and courage to take such a risk.
If you want to condemn Ernst Leitz II because he joined the Nazi party, then so be it. Nobody is saying that the Nazis were nice guys. However, with everything you have a spectrum. At one extreme you have the hard core true believers, such as the SS and the Hitler youth. At the other extreme even some Jews joined the Nazi party, just to avoid persecution. If they were found out, they were executed. Leitz never wanted to talk about his wartime experiences, so we will probably never know the entire truth of why he joined. The fact that he actually saved many Jews by getting them out of Germany is proof that he had no hatred towards them. He did this at his own expense, and at risk to his family, it should be noted.
Finally, the Jews were not the only people in the death camps. You also had the mentally ill, the physically deformed, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others who refused to join the New World Order - especially some Christian priests. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholic priests were "Aryan" Germans, but they paid the price to hold fast to their faith.
Robert Lai
Well-known
If you wonder why I'm so interested in this, it's because I had a Jewish partner when I was working in Chicago. His wife's parents both were killed in the camps.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
You know the Guardian Article and the history of Leitz has been around for a few years. It's not particularly unknown in the vintage camera collector/users world.
Judge a man by his actions, I say. Did Ernst Leitz do anything particularly NAZI-like?
Same as our Dutch Prince Bernhard, who had a membership to the NSB (Dutch National Socialist Party) before World War 2....he wasn't much of a NAZI either.
Judge a man by his actions, I say. Did Ernst Leitz do anything particularly NAZI-like?
Same as our Dutch Prince Bernhard, who had a membership to the NSB (Dutch National Socialist Party) before World War 2....he wasn't much of a NAZI either.
santino
FSU gear head
Wasn't Oskar Schindler a member of the Nsdap too?
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
It happens everywhere and at all levels. In any group there's always someone at the bottom of the heap for the others to kick and so on...
And if there's no one around to kick they kick the cat.
Question 1, (10 marks) Identify today's group that can be safely kicked, killed and so on.
Regards, David
PS And has been going on for centuries, I'm Welsh and that just meant "foreign" many years ago. Probably Saxon as German and Dutch friends know the word with that meaning.
It happens everywhere and at all levels. In any group there's always someone at the bottom of the heap for the others to kick and so on...
And if there's no one around to kick they kick the cat.
Question 1, (10 marks) Identify today's group that can be safely kicked, killed and so on.
Regards, David
PS And has been going on for centuries, I'm Welsh and that just meant "foreign" many years ago. Probably Saxon as German and Dutch friends know the word with that meaning.
ForestCap
Well-known
Similar figure from Siemens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
They made a movie about him. One impressive scene was people got shielded under 卐 flag from Japanese air raids.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
They made a movie about him. One impressive scene was people got shielded under 卐 flag from Japanese air raids.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Communists are same as Nazis. Countries were invaded, tens of millions were killed, people flee countries just as from Nazis.
Yet, nobody questioning soviet artist and scientists and else for been commies.
Nobody question Picasso for taking money from communists., either.
Yet, nobody questioning soviet artist and scientists and else for been commies.
Nobody question Picasso for taking money from communists., either.
Robert Lai
Well-known
David asked an interesting question,
Who are today's scapegoats?
Here's my list, although it will probably land me in Guantanamo Bay, getting waterboarded.
1) Russia. Everything that a Western politician messes up is conveniently blamed on the Russians. I believe that Russian collusion in the last US Presidential election was on Clinton's side, as the famous National Enquireresque "Dossier" of Christopher Steele was supposed to have been from "Russian Sources". Otherwise, Russia gets blamed for lots of things that they had nothing to do with. Clinton can't win a rigged election that the deep state was so busy moving in her favor? Russian collusion.
Mrs. May wants to show she has some moxy? Make up a fake poisoning incident with some washed up traitors to Russia. If the poison is so lethal, how come they are still alive?
Crimea? Anybody remember that it was Russian territory since Catherine the Great? Here's the quote from Wikipedia:
"The modern history of the Crimea begins with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by Catherine the Great in 1783 and the handing over of the Crimea by the Ottoman Empire to Russia as part of the Treaty provision. "
Taking back what was theirs to start with, with a 93% majority vote.
Russian aggression? Please name me a war where the Russians weren't invited by the local government to intervene? Afghanistan started that way. Syria started that way for them also.
It is only due to the extreme patience of President Putin that we are not all nuclear ashes right now, due to these extreme provocations. As Napoleon or Hitler could relate to you by their example, trying to make war with Russia is suicide.
2) Iran, and Shia Muslims in general. The most beheadings in the world are performed by Saudi Arabia. But the US press never mentions that.
Israel routinely bombs its neighbors. But the US press never mentions that.
It's always about "Iranian aggression". Aggression against who?
Name one country that Iran has invaded in the last 100 years.
Why are the Saudi Wahhabis so virtuous and the Shia such lowlife?
3) Palestinians. Here are semetic peoples who have been living in Palestine for 1000 years, and then a bunch of European Jews takes the land away and puts them in an open air concentration camp called the Gaza Strip. You think they'd be a little upset? White phosphorus is thrown on these people by Israel, and crickets are chirping in the UN. Palestinian kids throw rocks at Isrealis and get their heads blown off.
I could go on, but you get the point. There is no justice in this world so long as it is run by militarist madmen hell bent on enriching themselves at other people's expense.
Who are today's scapegoats?
Here's my list, although it will probably land me in Guantanamo Bay, getting waterboarded.
1) Russia. Everything that a Western politician messes up is conveniently blamed on the Russians. I believe that Russian collusion in the last US Presidential election was on Clinton's side, as the famous National Enquireresque "Dossier" of Christopher Steele was supposed to have been from "Russian Sources". Otherwise, Russia gets blamed for lots of things that they had nothing to do with. Clinton can't win a rigged election that the deep state was so busy moving in her favor? Russian collusion.
Mrs. May wants to show she has some moxy? Make up a fake poisoning incident with some washed up traitors to Russia. If the poison is so lethal, how come they are still alive?
Crimea? Anybody remember that it was Russian territory since Catherine the Great? Here's the quote from Wikipedia:
"The modern history of the Crimea begins with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by Catherine the Great in 1783 and the handing over of the Crimea by the Ottoman Empire to Russia as part of the Treaty provision. "
Taking back what was theirs to start with, with a 93% majority vote.
Russian aggression? Please name me a war where the Russians weren't invited by the local government to intervene? Afghanistan started that way. Syria started that way for them also.
It is only due to the extreme patience of President Putin that we are not all nuclear ashes right now, due to these extreme provocations. As Napoleon or Hitler could relate to you by their example, trying to make war with Russia is suicide.
2) Iran, and Shia Muslims in general. The most beheadings in the world are performed by Saudi Arabia. But the US press never mentions that.
Israel routinely bombs its neighbors. But the US press never mentions that.
It's always about "Iranian aggression". Aggression against who?
Name one country that Iran has invaded in the last 100 years.
Why are the Saudi Wahhabis so virtuous and the Shia such lowlife?
3) Palestinians. Here are semetic peoples who have been living in Palestine for 1000 years, and then a bunch of European Jews takes the land away and puts them in an open air concentration camp called the Gaza Strip. You think they'd be a little upset? White phosphorus is thrown on these people by Israel, and crickets are chirping in the UN. Palestinian kids throw rocks at Isrealis and get their heads blown off.
I could go on, but you get the point. There is no justice in this world so long as it is run by militarist madmen hell bent on enriching themselves at other people's expense.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
Time to close down the thread.
ktmrider
Well-known
Why close it down when it is just getting interesting? If it is too controversial for you, then don't read it. Free speech is a wonderful but dangerous thing.
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
No he didn't, he asked to name who can be safely killed today.
Number 1 in numbers killed is unborn human beings.
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