Leicabug
Established
I agree with Erwin. As I said in another thread, It's only a matter of time for Leica to go under. I don't believe anyone can save Leica. Enjoy Leica while we can. Hopefully Dr. Kaufmann has a lot money to burn so Leica can survive a few more years.
slm
Formerly nextreme
Fair enough.sitemistic said:
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
sitemistic said:
True.
Unless of course one has the "time" to do such things as you said - the only thing that I can think of is magazine articles or such - or a book that will be published.
Day-to-day news folks demand speed in today's world - that sometimes means WiFi links from the camera itself - that may be a sad reality to some but a reality all the same.
Dave
slm
Formerly nextreme
Ok, so that fact completely obliterates the RF camera form (and Leica by association) ? Thats what Erwin Puts is saying right ? That RF has done it's time ?dcsang said:
I think it's quite the opposite and in fact, there's an opportunity in the market right now for a mid-priced digital rangefinder. No one is playing that game !
newsgrunt
Well-known
dcsang said:
My personal experiences. People do notice the difference between a dslr and something small (rf or p&s). Back to China again, street shooting along the Bund in Shanghai, the D2's got enough stares but the coolpix didn't on another day. This was what I observed and why I had something small.
Beijing, during the national holidays, working amongst the masses in front of the the Forbidden City and Tian'anmen Sq, I was questioned quite persistently by a pair of young women. They probably had a clue I was not a casual tourist and wanted to know what I was going to do with the photos. We played this game for several minutes before they gave up when I kept shrugging my shoulders. I had a single D2 and a Domke F2 bag. Everyone else either had an old beater film camera/ cameraphone or p&s. The only people with pro dslr's were the news shooters.
infrequent
Well-known
bingo
bingo
comeon nikon!
bingo
nextreme said:
comeon nikon!
Hey, there's another echo in here. Nikon? Did someone say Nikon?
Yes, it's an opportunity! It looks pretty obvious to you and me (and others.) Curious as to why Puts, who studies this market as closely as anyone, chose his position. Perhaps he's assuming that it's simply impossible for Leica to build a mid-price RF (due to their cultural aversion to risk) or perhaps he thinks that there is no issue with their current pricing.
nextreme said:
Yes, it's an opportunity! It looks pretty obvious to you and me (and others.) Curious as to why Puts, who studies this market as closely as anyone, chose his position. Perhaps he's assuming that it's simply impossible for Leica to build a mid-price RF (due to their cultural aversion to risk) or perhaps he thinks that there is no issue with their current pricing.
Someone should post a poll:
Would you buy or not buy a modern digital RF under the following scenario?
List a bunch of modern features of a digital RF (autofocus, live view viewfinder, but not 6fps, not even full frame etc.) and put the retail price at say $2500. It's made by Leica or Nikon or another big name. It's got a range of lenses, dominated by fast primes, and maybe even zooms.
I'd certainly sign up...
Would you buy or not buy a modern digital RF under the following scenario?
List a bunch of modern features of a digital RF (autofocus, live view viewfinder, but not 6fps, not even full frame etc.) and put the retail price at say $2500. It's made by Leica or Nikon or another big name. It's got a range of lenses, dominated by fast primes, and maybe even zooms.
I'd certainly sign up...
I think at the economies of scale that Nikon has, it could be done profitably, and the price targets could be hit.
I have my doubts about Leica being able to change personality to get it done, unfortunately. They'd have to adopt a completely different mindset, which supposedly Mr. Lee brought...and yet he was sacked.
Would you buy one, mistic?
I have my doubts about Leica being able to change personality to get it done, unfortunately. They'd have to adopt a completely different mindset, which supposedly Mr. Lee brought...and yet he was sacked.
Would you buy one, mistic?
novum
Well-known
I want Nikon to make a camera that occupies the space between the Ricoh GR-D and the Epson RD-1. Tough, fast, interchangeable lenses (Nikon mount is fine with me), FF sensor--all for about $1K. Greedy me. Naive, too.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
nextreme said:
Ya.. but the corollary to that is - there's a reason why no one is playing that game.
What that reason is, I certainly don't know (or claim to know) but there must be a reason or there would be a bunch of players out there doing it
Dave
RF-Addict
Well-known
I am (almost) with sitemistic. I owned a RD-1 for about 9 months or so and while it worked really well, I just never got into it. Whenever I wanted to use a digital camera, I just grabbed my 5D and off I went. When i wanted a rangefinder, I would take my Bessa R2a - the RD-1 really saw minimal use. One of the reasons for that was the stupid crop factor. I hate the fact that my lenses are not what they are with film RFs. When the DSLR craze started I waited until a FF DSLR was available - and bought the 5D. No matter what others say, it is a PITA to use crop bodies. All of a sudden you have to get lenses that are even wider than what you already have. If you want a fast normal lens you have to fork out a lot more money, etc, etc.
So, unless a medium prized digital RF is fullframe, I will pass on it, no matter who makes it and no matter what it costs.
So, unless a medium prized digital RF is fullframe, I will pass on it, no matter who makes it and no matter what it costs.
There are many possible reasons why no one is filling it, some may only be relevant internally.
When it comes to Leica I don't think they have much of a choice, assuming the funds and expertise and fundamental drive to succeed, not to mention visionary leadership can be put in place.
When it comes to Leica I don't think they have much of a choice, assuming the funds and expertise and fundamental drive to succeed, not to mention visionary leadership can be put in place.
slm
Formerly nextreme
I fear Nikon is too busy in the dslr race with Canon. And now with Sony in the game, who is a match in size to Canon and they have clearly stated their intention to occupy the #1 position, well Nikon might not be willing to let their resources work on such a project.digitalintrigue said:
Its an interesting question though. Who would be in the best position to build a digital RF for the enthusiasts market (priced accordingly) ?
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
digitalintrigue said:
I never stated that it's an opportunity for Leica (or anyone else for that matter) just that, a "midrange priced digital RF" is not being made by any company right now. If there was that much of a market, someone, somewhere, should have/would have noted it and filled it.
The M8 is hardly "midrange priced". . . well, maybe for Leica's demographic it's "midrange priced"
- but for the rest of us working stiffs it's an expensive piece of equipment.Dave
ferider
Veteran
Dave,
I think it's not there yet because the necessary technology has only recently become available (deep affordable large sensors). Give it a few months.
Roland.
I think it's not there yet because the necessary technology has only recently become available (deep affordable large sensors). Give it a few months.
Roland.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
ferider said:
Roland.. you really think so?
I mean, I'd be all for it - heck; a reasonably priced M mount digital RF (reasonable to me is $2000-2500) would be great.
I just don't know if it could have that many people behind it - I mean, all of us here would like it but you think it can appeal to the youth that, perhaps, are not as "keen" on cameras?
I mean, most younger folks know all about Canons and Nikons but mention the word "range finder" and they look at you dumbfounded.
Dave
aizan
Veteran
how hard could it be to make it ourselves? we'd need a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, software engineer, optical designer, industrial designer...
slm
Formerly nextreme
venture capitalist....aizan said:
If one looks at the historical sales figures, Leica has not sold all that many cameras over the years. It stands to reason they wouldn't have to sell zillions of a reasonably priced (2k-2.5k) digital RF to be profitable.
Is it technically feasible? Most likely, if not definitely. Can Leica change their mentality to tackle the project? I have my doubts...they'd have to make decisions that are counter-culture for them.
Is it technically feasible? Most likely, if not definitely. Can Leica change their mentality to tackle the project? I have my doubts...they'd have to make decisions that are counter-culture for them.