r2d2
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In which world?
You leave no room for middle ground between reasonable and greedy.
ANY business will charge as much as the customers will pay. It's called "Capitalism".
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Just a minute.
What is the middle ground?
If you're charging more than is reasonable, it's hard to say that you aren't being greedy.
Cheers,
R.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Note; I said "around here", meaning RFF. An example of thread drift, as I've seen this discussion and other variants many times over the past few years.
No you aren't wrong, and I wasn't 100% on point. My bad.
And given Leica's financials, I wouldn't expect them to lower the price as the Euro drops. They may use the profit increase to stay in business a while longer.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Ah, but then again, what is "reasonable"? While I think the price of an M9 or MP is unreasonable, that doesn't necessarily mean I think Leica is greedy.
blimey
Established
I can comment on this since I'm a WIS. I could have sworn the reason they(Omega) gave for the price increase is because of the dollar's downfall against the euro. now, that parity is within reach, i wonder if that is the case. i doubt it, we are ruled by corporates.
Future is quite interesting and worrisome. M9 might get very expensive.. in the case if Deutche mark becomes the sovereign currency in Deutcheland.
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
It would be a real drag to find out a camera ordered next month was a lot cheaper- but by the time they make that one at that price it might lose them money. It's been three months now I'm waiting.
Ben Z
Veteran
Let me attempt to undo your derailment of what I said. I did not say the prices are unreasonable. "Reasonable" is defined by the purchaser. Obviously the prices are reasonable to whoever is purchasing the goods, which is all that can be said for any product.
We were not talking about Leica's prices, we were talking about Leica's price hikes...and then, not simply "are they justifiable?" but "are they justifiable on the basis of currency valuation fluctuation?". That doesn't seem to hold up to the math, even if one tosses in inflation, which in the US has been extremely low. NOT talking about since 1968, but since 2002, when Leica began seriously hiking prices.
Prices on the MP, M7 and in-production lenses have more than doubled since '02/'03. If you can, I'd welcome a list of other cameras/lenses that have doubled in price during the same period (NOT talking about new models!). Or a list of any consumer goods (again, not talking about new/upgraded models) that have doubled in price since '03.
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blimey
Established
Here is an article from Fortune magazine about imported luxury goods from Europe. In essence the rise or price increase seems to be attributed to the weak dollar.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/29/magazines/fortune/luxury_euro.fortune/index.htm
Now, that the Euro is weakening, are the current pricing schemes applicable? i wonder what corporates will use as an excuse now.
the same happened when oil was at $150 per barrel no thanks to the Great Bubble Machine called GS. Airline companies raised their prices too and use that excuse. Now, oil is at the $70s per barrel range and I believe airline companies are still charging a lot. Prices never came down.
It is how the world is and always will be. Most of us will see no change in sight in our lifetime but maybe our children and their children? Who knows.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/29/magazines/fortune/luxury_euro.fortune/index.htm
Now, that the Euro is weakening, are the current pricing schemes applicable? i wonder what corporates will use as an excuse now.
the same happened when oil was at $150 per barrel no thanks to the Great Bubble Machine called GS. Airline companies raised their prices too and use that excuse. Now, oil is at the $70s per barrel range and I believe airline companies are still charging a lot. Prices never came down.
It is how the world is and always will be. Most of us will see no change in sight in our lifetime but maybe our children and their children? Who knows.
Tom Niblick
Well-known
When the American economy was in shambles and the dollar dropped against the euro, Leica held the line on their prices. When in December of 09 the recovery was certain, they raised the prices on some of their lenses. In other words, they took the currency hit in 08/09; we're taking it now.
My bet, if sales slump in Europe, America will see rebates on packages - ie: M9/35 or 50 cron... but only if there is a surplus of M9s. Until then, don't hold your breath.
Tom
My bet, if sales slump in Europe, America will see rebates on packages - ie: M9/35 or 50 cron... but only if there is a surplus of M9s. Until then, don't hold your breath.
Tom
r2d2
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I doubt that there will be a surplus. They are selling them faster than they are assembling them. Many places have a long waiting list.
Tom Niblick
Well-known
I'm sure by the time there is a surplus of M9s, we'll all be in a more stable economy.
It took us nearly 2 years to get over the Wall Street bankers. It will probably take as long for Germany and France to recover from the Greek bailout.
We should have forced our banks to sell us their stock and then let them buy it back as they recovered. Hopefully the Europe can buy Greek bonds or securities and recover today's necessary investment sometime in the future.
Tom
It took us nearly 2 years to get over the Wall Street bankers. It will probably take as long for Germany and France to recover from the Greek bailout.
We should have forced our banks to sell us their stock and then let them buy it back as they recovered. Hopefully the Europe can buy Greek bonds or securities and recover today's necessary investment sometime in the future.
Tom
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,
Memorably described in Private Eye magazine as 'The Golden Fleece'.
Cheers,
R.
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yanidel
Well-known
good to see some optimism. I am in doom mode right now. There is no recovery in Europe and a deep recession coming due to looming budget cuts in public sector and the ensuing social unrest, this will just take the breathe out of the weak US recovery and by end of the year, we are back to September 2008.
What we are witnessing in the start of the decay of the Occidental empire. Leaving room for the East ... again ...
Hope I am wrong. In Leica's sake of course
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
good to see some optimism. I am in doom mode right now. There is no recovery in Europe and a deep recession coming due to looming budget cuts in public sector and the ensuing social unrest, this will just take the breathe out of the weak US recovery and by end of the year, we are back to September 2008.
What we are witnessing in the start of the decay of the Occidental empire. Leaving room for the East ... again ...
Hope I am wrong. In Leica's sake of course
So was Spengler in 1917, the publication year of Der Untergang des Abendlandes (The Decline of the West). Ain't happened yet.
Where in the East had you in mind? A fragile Chinese Empire, where 60% of the land area claimed by China is occupied countries (Tibet, Uighurstan, 'Inner' Mongolia, usw)? India (at least a democracy, but threatened with Maoist insurgencies in the east and with severe wealth distribution problems)? Japan (probably no longer militaristic)?
I'd probably back Latin America in the long term, but they have plenty of problems too.
Cheers,
R.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Strangely enough Greece has just 9 million inhabitants, about half the population of greater London. Now if London got into financial problems, would that destabilize the world economy?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
And California is a much bigger and more important economy than Greece, and in worse trouble; but because it is part of a financial bloc perceived as indissoluble, no-one worries anything like as much about the dollar as a single currency. Like your point about London, this is a strong argument, one might say, for closer economic ties in the euro-zone, rather than weaker ones.
Cheers,
R.
yanidel
Well-known
the problem has never been Greece as such but the signal its situation sent. Meaning if Greece is in trouble, than Portugal, Spain, Italy or even France could be soon in the same mode.
Add to that that most European banks hold Greek bonds and you could get a contagion of toxic assets pretty fast in case of bankruptcy. It is a bit similar to what happened with the subprime crisis, Greece is the Lehmann Brothers of Europe.
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yanidel
Well-known
China is by far the biggest threat IMO unless a big rebellion happened (which is still unlikely for a few years I think).
As long as countries like france stay in the "35 hours a week" "retirement at 60 years" and every corporation goes on strike as soon as their rights are touched, the decay will go on.
I forecast that France will be a "museum economy" by 2030. Only tourism and hopefully with visitors full of Leicas.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
China is by far the biggest threat IMO unless a big rebellion happened (which is still unlikely for a few years I think).
As long as countries like france stay in the "35 hours a week" "retirement at 60 years" and every corporation goes on strike as soon as their rights are touched, the decay will go on.
I forecast that France will be a "museum economy" by 2030. Only tourism and hopefully with visitors full of Leicas.
Something of a race to the bottom, really. If France is likely to be a 'museum economy' by 2030, I'd back the Chinese Empire to have fragmented before that.
You are of course quite right about retirement at 60 but I'm not so sure about the 35-hour week. There just isn't enough room for material growth left in the developed economies to sustain classic capitalist growth in the style of the 19th and 20th centuries, which is why capital sought new outlets such as derivatives. A better model for the future is a low- or zero-growth economy with more emphasis on sustainability and durability. And durability brings us back to Leicas again...
Cheers,
R.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I quite agree. Which makes Merkel's Einzelgang all the more worrying.
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