Exposing Eastman (Double-X) 5222 in the Leica

Tom,
I'm going to spool some rolls of 5231 +X today. We are going to the Ohio State Fair tommorrow, and it promises to be hot, and -bright-. So 64EI should be AOK outside. What do you think about using the TD-201 with the +X? I would think that would be a good match-up. The State Fair is a good place for some Leica street-shootin'.
 
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Nokton48,

I used Td-201 with a roll of Plus x 5231 about three weeks ago. I exposed it at 125 and I felt it was close. I have been shooting xx @250 and threw this roll in the developing batch.

I have been away from home so much this summer I am behind with the thread, developing and for sure printing and showing examples, but I am getting a lot of negs for later when the bad weather sets in.

Any way I would give the TD 201 a try, I think it will work good. 72 degrees and 3 min in each bath worked for me.

leo
 
I am still trying to use up my Pyrocat HD - funny how long 1000ml last when you only need 15ml/5 rolls!
I havent tried the 5231 in Td 201 (so far only in Pyrocat and Beutler). It should work fine in Td 201 though. I would suspect a rating of 100-125 asa would do it.
Beutler is interesting with the 5231. I used some Acros 100 as reference film and did run it for 7 min (1:1:8) - fried the 5231!!! Looked like negs to be used for Platinum printing! Next batch I did with 5231 for 5.5 min and less agitation (2turns/60 sec) - some "bromide drag" at the edges from the short time.
I am just finishig off some more rolls of it (checking out that 28f2.0 Ultron with it). This time I will do it in Beutler 1:1:10 and 6min. Will let you know how it works out.
I think it is time to mix some more TD 201 anyway this month.
The HC 110 is fine, I used 1:60 dilution and 10-11 minutes (rated the 5222 at 250. I wonder how it would work with the 5231 though - tends to be a bit harsh with finer grained films).
I better finish off those 400 ft of 5231 before the great gloom of the fall descends upon us too. However I am ordering another couple of cans in anticipation of next summer! It pays to plan ahead.
Tom
 
Nokton48 said:
Pesphoto,
I'd call them on the phone, I think they sell their stuff acquired in a matter of hours. Not sure what happens when you use the "carts", but I'm not sure if you'll get film that way.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I tried to use their "carts" once to but they sent an email back to me saying they have no stock for both +X and XX. I guess as you said, they got sold as a matter of hours. It's a bargain consider their price. :-(

Anyone know where is having some short ends stock?
 
There must be a lot of people reading this thread and calling Film Emporium. When I ordered my first roll back in February the guy was very helpful. He explained what he had, how it was packaged, and offered to include a core so that I could fit it into my bulk loader. Last week, I called again asking if they had any Double-X and all I got was "nope".

Fortunately, I still have about half of my 100' roll left. When I run out of that, I suspect that I will be ordering 400' directly from Kodak.
 
The blue curve seems to match my experience with the D96. About 9 min. Good developer for the 5222, a bit more curve than the D76 and more forgiving for over exposure. I found that the D96 allows me to shoot the 5222 at about 320 with consistent results.
 
After reading this thread for a while, I decide to jump it but just received reply by Film Emporium that no xx-5222 film and only some color negative. Have to order a 400' from Kodak Hong Kong at HK$1,360 (about us$175) and self pick up instead. Well, now have to finish my first 100" of tmx 400 first in my new loader before XX arrive in 2 week's time. Hope I can solve the 400' to one box of 100" can with just a changing bag.
 
I'm bringing one +x and one xx from US back to HK today 🙂 They have gave me a hell when I going through the hand carry luggage check point because the film are sealed in a metal can. 🙂

Unfortunately I heard that they do not have +x from HK Kodak, no?
 
I'm about ready to make another XX film run, probably this weekend, if I have time. I've got a whole roll of XX from the Ohio State Fair, shot with M2/35f2.5CV, what a great combination that is for street shooting😎 Very fun to use, especially back to the basics, and so spontaneous. Also racked off my first roll of +X, rated it at EI80, per the datasheet, also with M2/35CV, and finished the +X roll, at our local Minor-league Baseball game (their last game at the old stadium), with my V2 90mm Summicron. And in M5 I'm just finishing a roll of XX, using my (new to me) 1960 f2.8 Elmar. Looking forward to trying two -really- new lenses (don't have 'em yet), a black Canon 35mm f2 LTM, and my coating-marked Rigid 50mm Summicron, which John Van Stelton (at Focal Point in Colorado) has just finished re-coating. I should get both of those, tommorrow. 😀 I think I will run this stuff all together in the Borax ADOX MQ, after I filter out the crap (again). So I have a sort of benchmark, with the +X. Eight minutes at 20C is about right, I'm guessing. Maybe nine minutes, shouldn't hurt it 🙄
 
I would recommend trying the +X with Beutler. I did some rolls last week and they look really good. Some scans up on our Flickr site.
Rather than doing the standard 1A:!B and 8 parts water - I extended the dilution to !A:!B and 10 parts of water and 3 turns/60 sec for 6min total. Seems to work fine and though not ultra finegrain - great mid-tone range.
My next "experiment" is Vieri's suggestion for the GSD 10. I mixed it up today and shot some rolls of XX/X/Acros so maybe tonight I will run three first and see what gives. My Glycin is a bit old, so I might have to extend the stand developing a bit. First 3 rolls were shot at rated speed on the +X and XX and 160 asa on the Acros and I will run these according to Vieri's recommendation and adjust for the next rolls once I see the negs.
 
Tom, I think I will mix up some of the Beutler developer. Couldn't find the recipe in The Darkroom Cookbook, but it does talk about the famous German Photochemist, Willi Beutler. After googling, I quickly found the formula, didn't realize it was so easy to make, I think I have everything, although my supply of Sodium Carbonate is running low. So I will build up some rolls of +X film to run in the Beutler (I have a second roll in M2 right now, partially used up). Your Beutler shots do look really good with the +X, very cool. Wonder how it would do with XX?

Beutler High Acutance Film Developer is a compensating developer that gives excellent sharpness, medium grain, and low contrast. With 200 ASA or slower film a high degree of enlargement is possible. Compensation and lower contrast is achieved because more bromide is released in the highlights than in the shadows. The excess bromide in the highlights slows their development relative to the shadow areas where the development continues and brings out the fine details. The net effect is an increase in shadow detail and a decrease in the overall contrast of the negative. A Mackie line is a fine black line around the highlights. These fine lines result from Bromide spreading around the highlight. At the edge of the highlight, a concentration of bromide on the shadow side of the edge causes abnormal restrainment. Consequently, the edge highlight becomes very well defined.

For the benefit of XX and +X addicts out there, here is the formula:

BEUTLER HIGH ACUTANCE FILM DEVELOPER (NEOFIN BLUE FORMULA)

Stock Solution A
Water at 48C 750ml
Metol 10g
Sodium Sulfite 50g
Cold Water to make 1000ml


Stock Solution B
Water at 48C 750ml
Sodium Carbonate 50g
Cold water to make 1000ml


Working Solution
Water at 20c 750ml
Stock Solution A 100ml
Stock Solution B 100ml
Water to make 1000ml
 
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I was anxious to see some results, so I ran the +X and three XX in my TD-201, with good results for all four rolls. The +X seems a bit contrastier than the XX, inherently. But I do like the midtones, they are awesome! I've ordered Sulphate and Carbonate from Photographer's Formulary last night, so I'll mix some Beutler, for my next batch of +X (in the M2 right now). Here is the formula I found on the internet, for the GSD-10. Hmmm, I have a pound of Glycin left over from making print developer.....

GSD-10

Distilled Water 750ml
Sodium Sulfite 50g
Sodium Carbonate 75g
Glycin 10g
Distilled water to make 1 liter

Dilute 1:10 to make a working solution.
 
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I have done some rolls with the GSD 10 (Vieri recommended it). The XX initially was done as a stand developer and there was quite a bit of "drag" along the edges. The second batch I did with GSD 10 at 1:5 (300 ml of GSD 10 + 1200 ml of water), run for 6 min with 10 sec/60 sec agitation.
No visible drag of course and speed of the film was closer to 320 than 250. Not fine grain by any means, but sharp edged grain, looks bit like Beutler.
The 5231 +X again gave me drag poblem with "pure" stand development. Running it as a semi stand developer works much better. 60 sec initial agitation and then a "shake and roll" at 10 minutes and 20 minutes and then stand until 30 min. Much better looking negs and they scanned well too.
I still suspect that it is my Paterson reels that give me the problem with edge drag, but the problem seems to solve itself with a couple of intermediate shakes ( and NO. I am not switching to stainless reels, hate the suckers and I did far too many color rolls with these in the 70-80's).
I only mixed up 1000 ml of the GSD so I will do some more tests and then probably go back to Pyrocat HD as well as doing 5-10 rolls of XX with Beutler just to compare with the GSD.
 
I usually do XX and Beutler in a 1:1:8 dilution and for 9-10 minutes. You might have to adjust the time a bit, depending on your exposures. Distinct grain but very sharp edges. Sensitive to agitation - usually 2 turns every 60 sec.
At the moment I have a "dogs" breakfast to finish off. XX,X, Acros and even a couple of bodies loaded with NP 1600 rated at 800!
 
In the original formula for Beutler there was an addition. You were supposed to add Potassium Iodide (a 0.025% solution). It supposedly enhanced the adjacency effect. I have tried it both with and without it and can really see no difference. This is probably good as Pot. Iodide is one of those ingredients that has supplier pale! It is a/toxic and be can be used in making explosive stuff!
Beutler is also very sensitive to agitation - too much will kick up contrast and too little can give you edge drag marks.
Willi Beutler was hired by Leica to concoct a developer that really showed off the 35mm negatives capability. Remember that in the 50's, 35mm film was "miniature negative" and the press standard was Speed Graphics with 4x5 negatives! Made it easy to get a 2 column wide shot - 5 inches - probably why the Speed Graphic was a bitch to use for verticals!
 
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Tom A said:
In the original formula for Beutler there was an addition. You were supposed to add Potassium Iodide (a 0.025% solution).
Click to expand...

I can see proportional differences with this formula and that of FX-1 originally formulated by Geoffrey W. Crawley. Not wanting to take this too far OT has this variation been tried in your testing or are we looking at minor tweaks which changes in agitation/temp/time of Beutlers would give results with differences of the same magnitude ?
http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/formulary_tech/01-0080.pdf

This quote may explain the lack of affect of the Iodide, FX1 - "Not as effective with today's tabular grained films, which I suspect contain some silver iodide to increase sensitivity and make up for the decrease in the amount of silver in today's thin emulsion films."
 
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Bad form to self follow up but I have come across this post which comes to the same conclusion but with input from the man himself.
Quote
Alan Johnson
05-25-2008, 03:49 PM
I wrote to Geoffrey Crawley mentioning that he recommended the inclusion of a very small amount of potassium iodide in FX-1 whch he said produced adjacency effects with some but not all films at the time he published the formula (1961),asking if it still produced adjacency effects with modern films.
He replied that there is indeed no point in adding the iodide to FX-1 with modern films.The original formulation with potassium iodide was designed for the era of 'acutance' films.
The question raises the point of what constitutes a modern film and if there are any films on the market that still show acutance era response to potassium iodide.
IMO it is quite possible there are. Efke 25 & 100, Plus-X, Tri-X and HP5 all give stronger edge effects on Rodinal stand development than do the tabular grain films.I think only a real expert with a microscope could answer the question now, as in 1961.
End quote
 
Chris, I agree with you - the modern films do not really need the iodide, but it could be that the XX and +x moviestocks could benefit. They are "old" style emulsions, though the base is modernized.
I will try to shoot some more XX and if the sun comes out and allows for 80asa +x also try it with Beutler with and without Iodide. I haven't checked the "In' box with film to be processed but I suspect that there is enough to do two 5 reel runs of bot variations of XX.
The FX 1 I found a bit too rough on 400 film - the beutler is easier to manipulate for contrast. However Crawley's FX 37 works very well on modern films (NP 400/Tmax/TriX) and does give a good "edge" on these.
 
IMO it is quite possible there are. Efke 25 & 100, Plus-X, Tri-X and HP5 all give stronger edge effects on Rodinal stand development than do the tabular grain films.I think only a real expert with a microscope could answer the question now, as in 1961.
The best way to do this is not with a microscope, but with a mass spectrometer to see if there is any AgI in the emulsion. By looking with a microscope you're measuring secondary effects that are hard to quantify - for example the KI will bring some added acutance to films with AgI in the emulsion, just not enough for it to matter. I can tell you with some certainty that there was AgI in samples of Tri-X, Plus X, HP5+ and other modern films that I tested by mass spec about 5 years ago.

The KI is most likely to have an effect with Efke, Foma and other 'old tech' films. Especially Efke.

Marty
 
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