"Fair Witness"

[Roger Hicks]

I think the quote was meant to mean that the whole society is armed, not just the thieves. Changes it a bit...
Neither here nor there though..

Someone has to start a fight, though, and who has more incentive: the thief or the law-abiding citizen? What if the law-abiding but well-armed citizen overreacts?

Once the fight has started, all visions of politeness go out of the window. Around a dozen years ago, a firefight started on a farm near where I lived. The land was posted "No Hunting". The owner tried to scare off the hunters with his own gun. They shot back. Soon the police arrived and joined in.

Hence a local joke:

Q: What's the difference between French hunters and French beer?

A: You can get alcohol-free beer...

Cheers,

R.

 

[finguanzo]

I agree with you Roger,
but I've seen how weak and non confrontational a criminal becomes once they dont have, or dont think they have the upper hand anymore.
Of course, not everyone is the same..

 

[Roger Hicks]

I agree with you Roger,
but I've seen how weak and non confrontational a criminal becomes once they dont have, or dont think they have the upper hand anymore.
Of course, not everyone is the same..

Of course. In an ideal world I pull out my Colt National Match; suggest politely that the bad guy puts his gun down; and he does. But what if he panics and shoots? Or I misread his reactions, and panic and shoot? I have had formal firearms training (Army "marksman" grade) and I'm a very good shot. But this doesn't really qualify me to try to stop an armed, frightened, stupid robber. Too many people entertain what I strongly suspect are unrealistic fantasies about how much good they could do in such a situation. I'm just being realistic enough to suggest that things could go wrong.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Pioneer]

Highlight 1: Why and how?

Highlight 2: Quite. Which is why most societies try to deny them access to weapons.

Cheers,

R.

Highlight: And exactly where does this actually work?

The only places I can actually think of off hand are some very repressive governments, and in that case it could be argued that it is still the crooks with the weapons.

But I fear that I may have nudged this thread a bit off topic as I am a touch unclear what the right to bear arms has to do with bearing fair witness, assuming that it is even possible. 🙄

 

[Pioneer]

Of course. In an ideal world I pull out my Colt National Match; suggest politely that the bad guy puts his gun down; and he does. But what if he panics and shoots? Or I misread his reactions, and panic and shoot? I have had formal firearms training (Army "marksman" grade) and I'm a very good shot. But this doesn't really qualify me to try to stop an armed, frightened, stupid robber. Too many people entertain what I strongly suspect are unrealistic fantasies about how much good they could do in such a situation. I'm just being realistic enough to suggest that things could go wrong.

Cheers,

R.

Ahh, but perhaps the right to use your arms should include some training in what to do in that scenario. That I can certainly agree with, but just denying my right to have that weapon is heading in an entirely different direction.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Well, if not convincingly, then at least entertainingly, mostly with a right-wing and very American slant: "An armed society is a polite society"

Donner and Blitzen! I made a conscious decision not to mention that one, to avoid the inevitable "discussion". :angel:

But yes, I think he is generally entertaining up to and including "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (one of my favourite fiction books, along with "Double Star"). Then he discovered sex and, so far as I am concerned, became just plain silly. And yes, again; as "The Door Into Summer" shows, he really did have "a somewhat revisionist attitude to the age of consent".

 

[Roger Hicks]

Highlight: And exactly where does this actually work?

The only places I can actually think of off hand are some very repressive governments, and in that case it could be argued that it is still the crooks with the weapons.

But I fear that I may have nudged this thread a bit off topic as I am a touch unclear what the right to bear arms has to do with bearing fair witness, assuming that it is even possible. 🙄

Most places. Look at firearms fatality figures for different countries.

It was Heinlein and "fair witness" that triggered this line of argument: his ability to write stupid things entertainingly or perhaps even convincingly. "An armed society is a polite society" struck me as a pretty good example of a superficially attractive but extremely unconvincing argument.

It doesn't need to be firearms, of course. Anyone who carries any weapon with the intention of using it is likely to be a good deal more dangerous than anyone who does not.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Ahh, but perhaps the right to use your arms should include some training in what to do in that scenario. That I can certainly agree with, but just denying my right to have that weapon is heading in an entirely different direction.

How meaningful would/could such training be? Who would give it? How hard is the examination/test at the end of the course? Should both instructor and pupil be carrying live ammunition?

I've fenced with sharps. It makes you very careful. And it can also make you arrogant. Carrying a gun could very easily have the same effect on many people.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

I've fenced with sharps. It makes you very careful. And it can also make you arrogant. Carrying a gun could very easily have the same effect on many people.

This is very true.

I don't know how many people can honestly say they've been involved with a murder and a murderer but I am one. It's a long story, with which (for many reasons) I refuse to bore you but that murder would never have occurred if the murderer did not have access to a gun.

For that reason, I regard the "the right to bear arms" with the deepest suspicion.

 

[Pioneer]

How meaningful would/could such training be? Who would give it? How hard is the examination/test at the end of the course? Should both instructor and pupil be carrying live ammunition?

I've fenced with sharps. It makes you very careful. And it can also make you arrogant. Carrying a gun could very easily have the same effect on many people.

Cheers,

R.

Obviously it is only one possible solution which would require effort to make it work. And it should not be the only one either. However quite possibly better than the alternative we have now. And one that I believe is better than leaving all the weapons in the hands of the crooks.

Besides, the violence in my own society is not caused by the weapons. It is only a symptom of bigger problems. Proper accountability and responsibility is the biggest in my view. But governments, as well as many well-meaning people, believe the solution is to treat the citizens with the guns as if they are actually the criminals, rather than enforce accountability.

 

[Pioneer]

As for arrogance, that is an entirely different topic and one that is not as easy to resolve. 🙂

 

[Pioneer]

This is very true.

I don't know how many people can honestly say they've been involved with a murder and a murderer but I am one. It's a long story, with which (for many reasons) I refuse to bore you but that murder would never have occurred if the murderer did not have access to a gun.

For that reason, I regard the "the right to bear arms" with the deepest suspicion.

Which is, of course, your right. When confronted by a man with a gun you need not offer resistance of any kind. Sometimes this works, often it does not.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Which is, of course, your right. When confronted by a man with a gun you need not offer resistance of any kind. Sometimes this works, often it does not.

You appear to have missed the point of my post. In the case with which I was involved, a woman would now be alive, if the gun had not been present. I have seen what this has done to two families and, in consequence, think that only the abysmally foolish would want free ownership of firearms.

 

[Pioneer]

Not being totally up to speed regarding the circumstances of your own experience I cannot comment. In your case it may indeed be true that if the firearm had not been present no foul play would have occurred.

Obviously, in your case, I am in the realm of the abysmally foolish.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Obviously, in your case, I am in the realm of the abysmally foolish.

I'm sorry to have put it so strongly and hope you'll forgive the tone I used. Those events did and still do make me angry, even though I was at a remove from the worst of them.

Still, as Nanci Griffith sang, "From a distance the world looks blue and green, and the snow-capped mountains white"...

 

[Pioneer]

Oh, no offense taken. Likewise, I mean no disrespect to you or any of the others here. Your opinions are at least as valid as my own.