Fake black M3 on eBay. Beware!

[Erik van Straten]

An early black M3 is offered on eBay. Not hard to see that it is a fake.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321541362403?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Erik.

 

[Villanova]

Interesting! What were the biggest details that gave it away?

 

[Erik van Straten]

What were the biggest details that gave it away?

The biggest detail is that no black M3's were made below number 916001, but on the camera shown everything is wrong: from the type of black paint to the vulcanite and the poorly painted chrome screws, the kind of wear, everything.

Before the original MP's, from no. 13 to no. 150 (1957), just after batch M3 882001-886700, no black M's were made. Only a very few are known, no series.

The paperwork is a laugh as is the feedback of the seller.

Erik.

 

[splitimageview]

red flags all over this.

 

[Mark C]

Looks great though. The paint is nice and I wouldn't know either way, but the wear certainly is very tidy. The documentation is really over the top. A very thorough job if fake.

Would Leitz NY have identified black cameras in this way at the time? "Black M3" then serial number on the certificate. I guess being NY there really would be no way to know if that is the norm. Then "M3 Camera in Black Lacquer Finish" on the order. I'm surprised at the lacquer in the description, but that may well be the style of the time and place.

All very impressive. It will be interesting to see this one play out.

 

[calebarchie]

Looks great though. The paint is nice and I wouldn't know either way, but the wear certainly is very tidy. The documentation is really over the top. A very thorough job if fake.

Would Leitz NY have identified black cameras in this way at the time? "Black M3" then serial number on the certificate. I guess being NY there really would be no way to know if that is the norm. Then "M3 Camera in Black Lacquer Finish" on the order. I'm surprised at the lacquer in the description, but that may well be the style of the time and place.

All very impressive. It will be interesting to see this one play out.

Indeed, I wonder how much it may fetch if it lasts...

 

[Dan]

Do you think ebay's aggressive buyer protection policy would actually cover this purchase?

edit: wipe up drip from sarcasm

 

[nobbylon]

Erik, I turned this up on the net and it would seem that some early numbers maybe existed?
http://mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M3/M3_Black_Paint/index.htm

If one looks at photo 8 of the top plate there seems to be shadow cast around the Ernst and wetzlar script indicating deeper script associated with genuine BP cameras. I agree the wear looks home made and the brass way to golden for original wear. The L seal is there but these can be faked easily I suppose. The cover is an obvious replacement.
An interesting camera and I do think that top plate is an original BP due to those deeper engravings. I think it's a fake auction though.

 

[nobbylon]

746572 was sold this year for $470000 in hong kong. Apparently the 2nd black paint ever. The other thing about the one in the auction is the lugs. They look gen and are very difficult to take off and strip the chrome. BP ones were always black on brass like these.

http://leicaphilia.com/category/leica-film-camera/page/3/

 

[Fuchs]

Even if it is known that Leica made some black cameras on special order in serial numbers outside the well known "official" ranges, this one raises a lot of suspicions. The wear pattern is nowhere near the one saw on "real" BP cameras, and on the detail pictures there is wear in places it hardly wears. The leatherette covering is recent, it looks like the Cameraleather or Aki Asahi's offerings, and that only already detracts from the "100% original" stated in the auction title. The 2 points feedback and the recently registered username also do not help credibility.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Erik, I turned this up on the net and it would seem that some early numbers maybe existed?
http://mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M3/M3_Black_Paint/index.htm

The one Nobbylon shows is questionable too, look at the engraved number and, again, to the wear of the paint. A black M3 from this era should look more like an original black MP, like this one below.

Erik.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

Is there an issue in "faking" boxes?
Given this has enough documentation, whatever the origin, to sink the ship why no box?

 

[Erik van Straten]

The other thing about the one in the auction is the lugs. They look gen and are very difficult to take off and strip the chrome. BP ones were always black on brass like these.

http://leicaphilia.com/category/leica-film-camera/page/3/

Lugs can be replaced, but in this case I think they are painted on the body wile the vulcanite was removed.

This one looks like a Russian fake; in Russia many Leica-fakes are made, above all of Leica I Anastigmats. Those fakers make very refined work.

Erik.

 

[Tom A]

Leica would do black paint M's on order - even before the 910xxx series in 1957/58. The fact that the paper work is all in place makes me think that it is an original. The factory keeps ledgers that list the cameras and any special order modifications made to them.
Remember that at the time this was not a "collectible" - it was just a camera and the new owner obviously preferred black ones! Sometimes the special oder items do not show up in the "production" listings but in the "shipping" documents. Should be easy to double check with Leica N.Y. as it was evidently shipped there.

 

[_goodtimez]

The M3 engraving on the top plate looks to be taken with a different angle than the rest of the camera, like it was superimposed on it. Or is it my eyes ?

 

[riverie]

Good catch, and makes me feel lucky to be a forum member full of knowledgeable folks. I wouldn't be suspicious enough in the first place.

 

[Erik van Straten]

If one looks at photo 8 of the top plate there seems to be shadow cast around the Ernst and wetzlar script indicating deeper script associated with genuine BP cameras.

In any case the filling of the engraving with white paint is not very convincing. One should keep in mind that the logo "Leica Ernst Leitz, etc" is a stamp, wile the number is an engraving. On this one I do not see this difference. On genuine black paint M3, M2 an M4's this difference is big.

Another detail is the "notch" on the lower right side when seen from the front. On early black M's this is black, like the central disk on the inside of the shutter speed dial (seen frome above). On this one both are chrome.

Erik.

Here's no. 746576. This is an original, I think, except the small rewind lever. Look at the wear and the dark tone of the metal. This was first etched with a dark tone before being painted. This caused the typical bubbling and wear of the paint later. Look also at the "notch" on the right side and the inside disk of the shutter speed dial: both are black.

 

[AlwaysOnAuto]

I'm surprised there isn't a reserve on it.
Even if it is a fake, for $328 (price as of time I saw it) an old M3 DS is certainly worth that isn't it?

 

[nobbylon]

Erik, I agree on the paint but I think the camera is gen. It looks to me like it's been refinished at some point and had the top and bottom plates repainted. The paint has chipped and scratche off of all edges exactly like my early attempts with car aerosol paint!
Who know's but it's not original paint on those plates.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Erik, I agree on the paint but I think the camera is gen. It looks to me like it's been refinished at some point and had the top and bottom plates repainted. The paint has chipped and scratche off of all edges exactly like my early attempts with car aerosol paint!

And how about those chrome but painted screws? I agree that it is a genuine Leica but not a genuine black paint one.

Erik.