Fake black M3 on eBay. Beware!

[burancap]

How about the area around the front windows and especially near the adjustment cover screw? The brass/paint interface is very grainy, almost toothy. It looks quite a bit like what you would expect from brass that had been shell-blasted.

 

[nobbylon]

The top plate screws on the no2 camera are also black over chrome Eric as is the self timer retaining screw.

 

[mfogiel]

While I am sympathetic with Eric, and I do not intend to open a debate about the scope of collecting, to me a functioning black M3 is a functioning black M3, not one Dollar less or more, no matter who painted it black.

 

[Erik van Straten]

The top plate screws on the no2 camera are also black over chrome Eric as is the self timer retaining screw.

Are they? I don't see that, maybe it is me. The retaining screw of the selftimer is painted over the steel. This screw is not chromed on black cameras. It is not a brass screw, brass is not strong enough, btw.

Erik.

 

[sc_rufctr]

It looks legit or Leica painted to me. Don't forget these early ones would have been very different to the later series.

But the "L" seal does seem a bit to good to be true.
And the wear around the bottom plate release leaver seems a bit "contrived".

Anyway... Good luck to the winning bidder.

 

[Erik van Straten]

While I am sympathetic with Eric, and I do not intend to open a debate about the scope of collecting, to me a functioning black M3 is a functioning black M3, not one Dollar less or more, no matter who painted it black.

I agree, but the problem is that a genuine black M3 of this period has a collectors value of $300.000 at least.
So the fact that the owner tries to sell it on eBay says enough. When it was genuine, he would sell it through a decent auction house like Westlicht.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

pointless to speculate, as Tom says, easy to authenticate.

With modern copying techniques the paperwork is easier to forge than the camera, but if Leica can autorize them, there is no problem indeed.

Erik.

 

[V-12]

I'm not totally convinced by it. While some of the 'inexplicable' wear, the totally random accident damage that you see on many genuine cameras is present, other aspects look contrived, like the heavy 'feathering' around some of the worn edges, and the too precise wear around other edges. The white lettering is also too white given the rest of the wear. I would imagine that if it has been refinished a tinted clear coat has been used to replicate the Leica etch primer undercoat, and then a fragile top coat on top that will come off easily. As for the screws etc. I think they are 'period correct' if not actual period.

V

 

[Mark C]

I'd love to have the camera, and the paint does look very good to me. I've had a few black M4's but don't have the detailed knowledge of Leica that Erik van Straten and others do so I stay out of that.

The thing that bothers me most, whether this is real or not, is the low feedback. What forger would go to all this trouble, then not bother to build up some feedback on the account? And who in their right mind would sell a genuine item that valuable on a low feedback account, especially someone who claims to be an experienced eBay seller?

BTW, I was going to say "zero" feedback, but just looked and there are two. Was that what it has said all along?

 

[Travis L.]

I don't see anything to make me believe it's a fake, or repainted. Certainly not enough to publicly declare it so.

 

[Erik van Straten]

BTW, I was going to say "zero" feedback, but just looked and there are two. Was that what it has said all along?

Strange, when I looked for the first time, there was "zero" feedback, but later there were two. The seller may have received two feedbacks in the meantime, though.

Erik.

 

[bob338]

It looks fake to me. My black M3 looks nothing like this one. The 'wear' is a little too contrived. The paperwork is a little too over the top. The lettering should show some yellowing. You can see a bit of orange peel in the fourth photo. And the fact that this *big* dollar camera is being sold on the lowest rung of the auction ladder, should be a big warning sign.

 

[Balto]

The paint seems much to reflective to be the old enamel used on original M3's that I have seen in photos. More comparable to my LHSA ttl or a new MP. And the fact it's up on ebay with that starting price is a dead giveaway to me, if you are able to post to ebay you clearly have the means to check the value of the item online and no one in their right mind would put it up with no reserve. My 0.2c anyway.

 

[Dante_Stella]

I know there is a tendency - perhaps based on schadenfreude, to use the German word - to assume or hope that it is a fake. The factory could resolve this very quickly, but I am looking at some of the things in this listing:

- The invoice is clearly typed with a carbon-ribbon typewriter. Did those exist in 1955?
- The paper has a totally random aging pattern
- The camera has clearly been retouched in several places (see the flash shoe)
- Hard to tell in the enlarged pictures, but the printing on the envelope looks grainy
- The white in some of the engraving has been refilled

Knowing lacquer on brass wear patterns from the Fuji G series, I wouldn't read too much in the wear. That type of finish wear occurs just from looking at the camera wrong.

My big picture question is this - who would be so meticulous about documentation yet fail to take steps to protect the camera? It's possible that Busby threw everything in the original box and put it in the attic - but you would expect a half-case to be in use if this was something for which he intentionally saved the documentation.

Did Leica NY repaint any of these on their own? That might explain part of this. But in the end, I would not immediately jump on the idea that it's fake - or at least a recent fake. Why not just resolve it by emailing the factory?

Dante

 

[colyn]

I tend to agree with Tom more so than others on this forum.
I ordered a M3 years ago specially painted black outside of the serial number range so I know they will do it.. So it is quiet possible this is a genuine black paint from the factory M3.

Besides that with the sellers low feedback Paypal will put a hold on the funds especially since the current price is above a G..

If I were going to buy I'd do like Tom says and verify with E.Leitz NY..

 

[CJoyner]

Long time listener, first time caller to the RFF.

I won't pass judgement on the Leica, but the paperwork is bogus. If you look at the bill of sale and the envelope, the address for Leitz is later than the one listed on the warranty card. Also, the bill of sale and envelope have a zip code listed and a sale date of 1955, but zip codes were introduced around 1962. That's the problem when you try too hard to create a paper trail to support a fake item.

Cheers,
Carl

 

[colyn]

Long time listener, first time caller to the RFF.

I won't pass judgement on the Leica, but the paperwork is bogus. If you look at the bill of sale and the envelope, the address for Leitz is later than the one listed on the warranty card. Also, the bill of sale and envelope have a zip code listed and a sale date of 1955, but zip codes were introduced around 1962. That's the problem when you try too hard to create a paper trail to support a fake item.

Cheers,
Carl

You can order copies from E.Leitz which will have the updated info..

Check the buyers address...no zip code..

I ordered a copy of the 1936 vintage Leica IIIa that my Granddad bought new in 1936 and it had the updated info..

 

[MrFujicaman]

I think the invoice is a phony-ZIP codes didn't come into effect until 1963. Yet the one shown has a ZIP code.

 

[colyn]

I think the invoice is a phony-ZIP codes didn't come into effect until 1963. Yet the one shown has a ZIP code.

Please read post #38.

You can order copies of old invoices but they will have the zip in the companies address..

 

[Scrambler]

Strange, when I looked for the first time, there was "zero" feedback, but later there were two. The seller may have received two feedbacks in the meantime, though. Erik.

Gotta read the feedback.

2 positive feedback: for buy-it-now from what I can see.