Fake or real? Help!

[Iestrada]

I am being offered two screw mount Leicas and a Nikon S with a 5 cm 1.4.

I am not really interested but do not want to pass up a great deal. One of the Leicas may be a Luftwaffen-Eigentum IIIc. What are the identifying marks?

Serial No. 38573
FI. No. 38079
Engraved Luftwaffen-Eigentum
Z mark on the high speed dial instead of B
Partially chromed view finder (on the center between the two finders)

Are there any other distinguishing marks? Inside, bottom plate? anywhere?

 

[Iestrada]

Here are three more pictures.

 

[FrankS]

I say real. The common fakes are bodies with no slow shutter speed dial, and fakes usually have a shutter cable release thread in the shutter button.

 

[FrankS]

To know for almost sure, unscrew the lens and look inside the top of the camera body throat for the rangefinder focus follower. If its a roller it's usually a Leica, if its a (triangular) metal slider then its not a Leica.

 

[Iestrada]

What is a reasonable price? The other Leica. Being offered is sporting a 5cm Elmar. From the pictures, it is impossible to tell if it belongs to this camera.

 

[mdarnton]

Also, Leica: four screws in accessory shoe.
Russian: three.
The camera looks like a Leica. I don't know about the engraving, though--that's a separate issue.

 

[Iestrada]

Any other words of wisdom?

 

[sebastel]

looks like a leica with some special (maybe third party?) shutter attachment. but from these pictures, it's not possible to tell without doubt.

 

[Scrambler]

I'm not sure what you want commented on.

I know precious little about Leicas compared to most ... however even I can tell you this is a Leica IIIc, as indicated by the integral body/RF/viewfinder housing. Earlier Leicas (III, IIIa, IIIb) have housings for the RF/VF separate to the body - and therefore don't have the little chrome slips either side of the lens mount.

It's a wartime (or early postwar) version with a step beneath the rewind lever and a matching small knob on the focus adjustment for the RF.

my old (2001) McKeown's says it's worth about $400 if not marked, would be $3000 or so if "K" shutter and about the same or a little more if Luftwaffen. What prices have done in the last dozen years I don't know.

From what I can see the serial number is not the correct length for the camera's age. It should be 6 digit: both my postwar IIIc's are. What that means I couldn't say, nor why there appears to be an "M" before the serial number.

EDIT - Modified Russian cameras all fake earlier model Leicas. The only possible fakery is modifying a later model IIIc (or unmarked wartime IIIc) to appear to be the 10 times more valuable Luftwaffen version)

 

[Iestrada]

You are correct. The serial number is 385743. I left out the 4 in my first post.

So, it seems to be a real Leica!

Is it a real Luftwaffen?

 

[Scrambler]

That's why the word "provenance" gets used. You should be able to get some sort of verifiable history: who owned it when. Apart from that, there is no difference between a camera bought into military service and one bought by a civilian. I have seen photos of Leicas with British military markings - they bought them second-hand from civilians.

You really need the camera itself assessed in person by an expert - or you take your chances. And I can't help you there. hopefully someone can.

 

[Iestrada]

Thanks for the information everybody.

Please, do keep the information comming!

 

[Photo_Smith]

It is a Leica IIIc and it looks like a WWII one. I have exactly the same model and it's a 1947. Apparently you can tell the 1940-45 IIIc as the re-wind lever has a step under it, my '47 doesn't.

So it is a wartime Leica, no cheap copy; but it could have been engraved later as most Luftwaffe Leica's have a 'K' stamped on them which stands for 'Kaltfest' or cold proof as they needed to work at high altitude.

That said I've never seen one, a quick Google brought up this for reference:
http://www.cameraquest.com/luft.htm

I think you should look at the serial numbers in the link above, the FI number is identical, the serial is just a few away...

 

[johannielscom]

'K' shutter means 'Kaltefest', and not all Luftwaffen cameras had the 'K' engraved.

This looks legit and is in very good condition. If the lens also is engraved Luftwaffen-eigentum, that would be even better but from the looks of it, I say it is probably a >1947 lens, with the vulcanite band at the base.

Often the accompanying lens was either a 2.0/50 Summitar or a 3.5/50 Elmar. If the original lens is with it, the deal is even more interesting. It should very likely be engraved as well then. Serial no. of the lens should be somewhere between 490xxxx and 580xxxx.

Does it have red shutter curtains in a good condition? Added value again.

If the seller is unaware and offers it for a few hundred you're in luck!

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Serial number is too high for it to have had red curtains initially Johan.

 

[squareshooter]

Sounds a bit too good to be true. Provenance time I think.

 

[Rob-F]

I believe it's a real Leica. It simply has none of the telltale signs of a counterfeit. I would lose that strange release button add-on. You can buy a correct replacement collar online.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

IN WW II there were only 'stepper' IIIc, however this is a 'flat top' with a high serial, therefore: a real Leica (IIIc's were not copied), but not a real Luftwaffen camera.

 

[Scrambler]

IN WW II there were only 'stepper' IIIc, however this is a 'flat top' with a high serial, therefore: a real Leica (IIIc's were not copied), but not a real Luftwaffen camera.

Are you looking at the correct photos? The small thumbnail ones in the first post show a "stepper" IIIc (to use your description). The quoted serial number is in the correct range to match the body style. The later IIIc in the large picture later in the thread is one posted for comparison - a known 1947 body.

 

[colyn]

It's real.. Even the engraving is the proper font..