FED 1 or Zorki 1? Please suggest me.

[longw]

Hi,

I am new here and also new to FSU RF. Now I am planning to buy either of these two. Before that I did some reading. Seems both are quite same in functionality and outlook. However, I would like hear your suggestion, which one has better build quality, which one has more fun to play with?

Thanks in advance!

tao

 

[payasam]

All I can suggest is that if you buy a Zorki 1, make it a 1C or later: the earlier ones have soft bodies which can be crushed out of shape by finger pressure.

 

[longw]

Thanks for the tip, payasam.
Zorki 1 has s/n :442676. Is it Zorki 1D?
Fed 1 has s/n : 356696.

 

[Valkir1987]

crushed out of shape by finger pressure.

This does not mean the camera is as soft as butter, the material can indeed be deformed if you press very hard. But if you use the camera normally there should be no problem. If the body is allready deformed you may experience with film loading, (fitting the cartridge for example).

The Fed can be nice as well, I have a 1f and a 1g. My 1f works smoother and is better finished than the 1g. But there are good 1g's as well.

 

[payasam]

[SIZE=-1]http://home.att.net/~wayne.cornell/camera/zorki12list.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/marine/569/rusrngfdrs/fed1zorki1.html

[/SIZE]

 

[ZorkiKat]

All I can suggest is that if you buy a Zorki 1, make it a 1C or later: the earlier ones have soft bodies which can be crushed out of shape by finger pressure.

They may have soft bodies, but it will take more than that to crush an early Zorki-1 bad enough to render it useless. I have several of these Zorki (usually those with 5-digit numbers) and their soft shells aren't that soft.

The real issue with these earlier Zorki is their tighter film chambers which can detain Kodak or Fuji factory cassettes.

Wayne and I had a lots of discussions about "soft" Zorki bodies.

Jay

 

[reagan]

It's hard to identify models by numbers, so go to the links payasam offers above to see descriptions of different models. I only have Zorkis and for some reason never looked much at FEDs. But guys [and gals] love 'em so you'll probably like either one.

I also opted for the export models of Zorki.1, both c & d, because I had read that they were of a slightly better quality than the ones sold at home in Russia. I can't testify to the accuracy of that statement, but mine work well. They are identified by the name engraved in both English and Syrillic on top... a.k.a. "Zorki-Zorki".

Good hunting and welcome to RFF!

 

[ZorkiKat]

Both are Good

Both are Good

http://jay.fedka.com

Any FED is as good as any Zorki. Or vice versa.

If you don't plan to use any other lens than the 50mm which came with the camera (a good idea), then even a clean prewar FED is good to have.

Avoid prewar and some postwar FED (those with SN below 250xxx-300xxx) if lens interchangeability with other Soviet LTM lenses is in the plan. These cameras had non-standard lens mounts, lens registers, and depending on the lens issued with them, non-standard camming as well.

The best FED-1 which will likely (the quality will always vary) accomodate interchangeable lenses are those whose SN is above 450XXX.

Build quality isn't really much different. Early FED and pre-1950s Zorki have rather soft bodies (not as soft as suggested by another poster above) which can be deformed. Later Zorki have die-cast bodies which are quite robust.

Early FED on the other hand have really meticulous build quality in them. The FED from this type which I've serviced always give an impression that they were built by people who cared about making cameras. There are plenty of extra parts there which are no longer found in the later productions, Zorki included.

Later FED on the other hand feel 'loose' when handled and used. Gears don't seem to engage properly or loosely. But these don't affect the functionality of the cameras. They shoot as they were made to do. And the end result is the same as any obtained with a Zorki.

The variable quality of make, the way these cameras were stored in the last half-century, who used and serviced them will in the end determine which camera is good. Having "Zorki" or "FED" stamped on their top plates unfortunately is not an indicator which will be better.

Jay

 

[reagan]

Jay's site above, among much great data, has a really good page, "FED vs. Zorki". Lots of pics and info there. (Thank God for all of Jay's work! He's rescued me more than once. )

 

[longw]

Thank you everybody!

Indeed, it is quite complicated to identify those Z/F vairants, especially for newbie like me. I post the links below. They are ebay sales.
FED 1:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=200130372534&rd=1&rd=1
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260142149239&rd=1&rd=1

Zorki 1:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=130136918522&rd=1&rd=1
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200133176853&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

You might need to Copy/past the link.

tao

 

[payasam]

Tao, you might like to follow the links I gave in post number 5. Most things are relative. Here is what Cornell has to say about the Zorki 1B. I'd call it unambiguous, never mind what sharp eyed experts say.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The camera is rather delicate, however because it has the "soft body." It is easy to dent the early bodies by simply applying pressure with your thumbs. Beginning with the 1C the body was made from a stronger alloy.[/FONT]

 

[Xmas]

If the (either) camera is in resonable condition it wil take photos as good or better than a leica II.

Jay is correct - I need to carry a swiss army knife to get standard cassettes back out, use one of the tools as a lever, a house key covered with a hanky as a fulcrum.

I have to use a Leitz hood, as I'm fussy, but this also is needed for an elmar, I still get flare on occassions, the uncoated Fed is no different from the coated ones.

Noel

 

[ZorkiKat]

...I'd call it unambiguous, never mind what sharp eyed experts say.
....

Not all of the so-called "pre-Ic" bodies are 'soft'. Some of them have shells as tough as the later ones. I've never seen any soft bodied Zorki with serial numbers above 117XXX.

That's a sharp-eyed, 1st witness account, not some sloppy taffy assumption.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Thank you everybody!

Indeed, it is quite complicated to identify those Z/F vairants, especially for newbie like me. I post the links below. They are ebay sales.
FED 1:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=200130372534&rd=1&rd=1

and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260142149239&rd=1&rd=1

Zorki 1:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=130136918522&rd=1&rd=1
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200133176853&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

You might need to Copy/past the link.

tao

Tao

The first FED linked (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=200130372534&rd=1&rd=1) belongs to batches which may or may not allow easy lens interchangeability with other Soviet LTM. If you're just after a good compact 35mm, this is OK.

The second FED link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260142149239&rd=1&rd=1) is from the last of the runs. These are often found with standard 28.8mm registers. Chances are, other lenses would not mount with the tab stopping over the RF/VF windows too.

Either of the Zorki in the linked ebay pages are good. These are well made, and you should have no problem about factory loaded cassettes getting detained in the camera.

BTW, speaking of lens interchangeability, there is reason to believe that full lens interchanges between brands wasn't really intended for the FED. The instruction booklets of the post war cameras don't mention this (in contrast, Zorki manuals mention alternatives to the standard 50/3.5 lenses, with corresponding instructions about recalibrating the camera in case the faster 50's are used). The only mention in the FED manuals about removing the lens is a warning that doing so can damage the camera.

Jay

 

[kiev4a]

Soft bodies and taffy

Soft bodies and taffy

I've had probably a dozen Z1Bs and there was only one--a late model--that had a body comparable in strength to the 1C and later bodies, 1Bs with alloy bodies exist but they seem to be relatively rare.

I have 1 mint 1B that has two depressions in the back matching the snaps on the leather case. Apparently just the pressure of the snaps over the years caused the indents.

Modern Film cartridges are a tight fit on most Z1Bs--not a matter of soft bodies in most cases--just closer tolerances. BTW. The smoothest operating Z1s probably are the Z1bs, probably because the film track--in at least some of them, is chrome plated. Also the round pressure plate probably creates less drag on the film that the later, larger plates.

None of the FED 1s, to my knowledge, have the soft body problem. As has been pointed out, the pre war FEDs and some just after the war, have a nonstandard thread pitch on the mount and lens and non standard lens to film distances.

I haven't kept detailed record but feel I have seen enough Zorki and FED 1s to take any taffy out of my conclusions. Bottom line is if you purchase a Zorki 1B you probably has an 85 percent or better chance of getting a soft body.

Jay probably has seen the insides of more Zorkis and FEDs that most of the people who worked in the plants.

Cornell

 

[ZorkiKat]

Jay probably has seen the insides of more Zorkis and FEDs that most of the people who worked in the plants.

Not possible. I've only a few Zorki.

I have perhaps about 12 or 15 Zorki-1 specimens belonging to the "Ib" series. Of these, only 2 (one has the same pigskin covering described in the website quoted above) have really soft bodies. One has an indentation which would give an impression that it was distorted by a thumb (the opposing thumb will land on that area when the camera is grasped), but careful examination would "finger" the culprit as the ERC snap.

The other 'soft' body Zorki (dual Zorki-Зоркий engraving, round pressure plate) doesn't seem as soft though as the one previously described. It will not bend with normal handling and it would take a lot of effort to even start putting a hand-made dent on it. This Zorki body has the same density as my 1935 FED-1's shell. This FED had a distorted body when I got it, but was reformed by using a wooden form and some beating:

The rest of the Ib types I have have bodies which are as robust as the later Zorki-1 with non-diecast bodies. They match contemporary FED-1 in this respect. These Zorki have serial numbers of 115xxx or 117xxx or higher. Many of these are definitely not "1c" or later, since they all have the same external features of a typical 1c (no "stripes"), and someof these no longer have the round pressure plate.

The tight film chambers are also found only on the low-numbered bodies. The crates in these cameras, still the stamped, multi-piece FED-derived type, has indentations on the side facing the film chamber. Its indentation coincides with the area between the caps of the cassette. This in effect 'hugs' the cassette rather tightly and causes the sharp, crimped caps to catch on the indentations, making the cassette hard to retrieve. The same has been observed in some late FED 1g (SN above 65X XXX). In either camera, this problem can be eased by some filing on the crate. The part of the body shell which forms the film chamber can also be beaten to shape a bit to make space for the cassette.


Jay

edit: pic

 

[kiev4a]

Bottom loaders

Bottom loaders

Jay:

The 1B with the indents I alluded to earlier is a double Zorki (with sync added) that I got from the famous Anya of Odessa.

I have a 1937 NKVD FED 1 and FED from just after the war that don't show any soft body traits. Have a five digit SN Zorki with a body so deformed and beat up that I finally just chucked the body shell and put it in a 2C body. There was a reason why the 1bs had three screws in the back and the later ones only had 2 screws.

The strongest the the FSU bottom loader shells seem to be the Zorki 5. I could be wrong but it seems to be made of steel rather than an aluminum alloy. I know I had a heck of a time grinding off the mounts on the to inside of the shell

If I were looking for a FSU Leica II clone to shoot with I would want either a "Double Zorki"1 C, a 1D -- the first with the different spring assembly OR a late FED 1F --which had the Leica "button" shutter release and a standard pitch LTM mount and lens.

The Zorki 2 with the self timer and strap lugs is a smooth camera but they are rare enough that they fetch fairly high prices. The C and 2C are good shooters and a lot cheaper, primarily because they are really ugly when compared to the Z1.

Wayne

Not possible. I've only a few Zorki.

I have perhaps about 12 or 15 Zorki-1 specimens belonging to the "Ib" series. Of these, only 2 (one has the same pigskin covering described in the website quoted above) have really soft bodies. One has an indentation which would give an impression that it was distorted by a thumb (the opposing thumb will land on that area when the camera is grasped), but careful examination would "finger" the culprit as the ERC snap.

The other 'soft' body Zorki (dual Zorki-Зоркий engraving, round pressure plate) doesn't seem as soft though as the one previously described. It will not bend with normal handling and it would take a lot of effort to even start putting a hand-made dent on it. This Zorki body has the same density as my 1935 FED-1's shell. This FED had a distorted body when I got it, but was reformed by using a wooden form and some beating:

The rest of the Ib types I have have bodies which are as robust as the later Zorki-1 with non-diecast bodies. They match contemporary FED-1 in this respect. These Zorki have serial numbers of 115xxx or 117xxx or higher. Many of these are definitely not "1c" or later, since they all have the same external features of a typical 1c (no "stripes"), and someof these no longer have the round pressure plate.

The tight film chambers are also found only on the low-numbered bodies. The crates in these cameras, still the stamped, multi-piece FED-derived type, has indentations on the side facing the film chamber. Its indentation coincides with the area between the caps of the cassette. This in effect 'hugs' the cassette rather tightly and causes the sharp, crimped caps to catch on the indentations, making the cassette hard to retrieve. The same has been observed in some late FED 1g (SN above 65X XXX). In either camera, this problem can be eased by some filing on the crate. The part of the body shell which forms the film chamber can also be beaten to shape a bit to make space for the cassette.


Jay

edit: pic

 

[longw]

Hi,
Thanks for everybody's input. I finally chose FED 1 (366696)

ZorkiKat and payasam,
After reading your post, I realized I might be facing the lens interchangibility issue and rangerfinder calibration with this camera.

The worst case I guess is that I can only use the lens attached with it. That lens is FED 50 1:3.5. Is it the predcessor of collapsible I/50?

I haven no experience how soft some Zorki copy would be. However, I remembered somewhere I read that Zorki has better build quality than FED after FED 2, as they were targeted to different markets.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Hi,
Thanks for everybody's input. I finally chose FED 1 (366696)

The worst case I guess is that I can only use the lens attached with it. That lens is FED 50 1:3.5. Is it the predcessor of collapsible I/50?

I haven no experience how soft some Zorki copy would be. However, I remembered somewhere I read that Zorki has better build quality than FED after FED 2, as they were targeted to different markets.

Hi Tau

A FED-1 I got this month is of the same type (SN 379XXX). It came in non-working state, but has already been restored to full working condition.

Regarding your concerns, I can tell you these-

As far as build quality is concerned, I can say that it is just as good as any later Zorki-1. It is well built inside and outside (seeing this during the repair). Parts engage well and there is none of the 'loose play' sometimes found with later FED 1 of the 'g' variant.

Regarding focus, this FED-1 will take any later Soviet LTM lens. A Leica Summitar lens will also fit. Focusing is on the dot, but the mount thread orientation is not quite right for other lenses. For instance, the infinity stop of the Summitar lands at 4 o'clock position- right across where it should be, at 7 o'clock.

However for other FED-1 within this type, focusing might not be as standard. For instance, my FED-1 359XXX when adjusted for its FED 50 lens has a different focus camming, making other lenses focus erroneously when fit on it.
For this situation, you can adjust the RF and RF sensor to conform to a later lens, but this will render the original lens unusable.

The FED-50 is really the Industar-10, and is indeed an ancestor of all the Industar. The references say that the I-22 and I-50 were improvements, but these improvements are hard to see. The FED-50/ I-10 is as good, both in colour and BW.
Plus, it uses an aperture setting lever like the one found in Elmar 50mm, so this would be a plus factor if you like Leica accents.

The better build quality observed in Zorki-1 (compared to later FED-1) is for the most part cosmetic and handling feel. Otherwise, normal and correct operation will not break a FED-1.

FED-2 are a different breed. Depending on variant and era when it was built, the quality tends to vary as well. The best are from the late 1950s to middle 1960s. Since FED did not use the year prefix in their numbering system, it is not possible to readily tell when a FED camera was built.

Jay

 

[longw]

Hi Jay,

I might don't change lens at all for this camera as I have a FED 2 (117xxx) and a Zorki 4 (571xxx) on the way, too. The only thing I hope is I don't need to recalibrate the rangerfinder through I believe it is not rocket science.

Can't wait for these metal beauties.

tao