pauls52
Established
This is a bit off topic but I find this stuff fascinating and this should correct any misconceptions I may have promoted. The quote is taken directly from an online PDF which I think is the Leica Lens Manual (223 pages but there is no cover page).
So in other words, the design was a performance trade off between vignetting and astigmatism and improved centre definition. This of course is a single tehnical focussed source and who knows if any other considerations may have been involved.
"As the Elmax was a bit complicated to build (as a cemented triple) Berek changed
the design to a triplet with the last element as a cemented doublet.
the design to a triplet with the last element as a cemented doublet.
Figure 5: 2.1.3 C Elmax. (unfortunately, all diagrams & photos havebeen removed from the PDF)
The Elmar was born. The design date on the documents tell us that the first design
of the Elmar was completed in 1925. This lens had improved imagery when
compared to the Elmax. The Elmar design is similar to a Tessar design, with one
important exception, the location of the stop. In optical design the location of the
stop is part of the tools for aberration correction. Depending on the design this
location can be more or less influential. In the case of the Elmar, the stop is located
between the first and second element. This forward location cuts off some of the
rays at the edge of the lens and while producing some additional vignetting, also
improves the central definition. As the lens is now unsymmetrical around the stop,
we see some astigmatism and coma in the outer zones of the field."of the Elmar was completed in 1925. This lens had improved imagery when
compared to the Elmax. The Elmar design is similar to a Tessar design, with one
important exception, the location of the stop. In optical design the location of the
stop is part of the tools for aberration correction. Depending on the design this
location can be more or less influential. In the case of the Elmar, the stop is located
between the first and second element. This forward location cuts off some of the
rays at the edge of the lens and while producing some additional vignetting, also
improves the central definition. As the lens is now unsymmetrical around the stop,
So in other words, the design was a performance trade off between vignetting and astigmatism and improved centre definition. This of course is a single tehnical focussed source and who knows if any other considerations may have been involved.
David Hughes
David Hughes
I'd also imagine they were up against Kodak who had probably poured millions into lens design over the years and patented everything they'd discovered.
BTW, positioning of the stops also affects the barrel or pin cushion distortion. Symmetric lenses with the diaphragm in the middle were used to neutralise this.
Regards, David
BTW, positioning of the stops also affects the barrel or pin cushion distortion. Symmetric lenses with the diaphragm in the middle were used to neutralise this.
Regards, David
Valkir1987
Well-known
In one of the prewar Leica handbooks (can't remember it was the Handbuch or "Das Leica Buch von Kisselbach", the books are at my parents at the moment) . I read that it was Leica's goal (with the 3,5 Elmar) to create a artistic image like a painting.
I wonder why paper shimms should be the result of uncarefull machinery. They are found in Leica's as well. The Leica II's shutter crate is made of molded (or pressed) brass plates. Shimming the lens mount is the result of the design. Shimms can last a lot and be applied accurately.
Greetings
I wonder why paper shimms should be the result of uncarefull machinery. They are found in Leica's as well. The Leica II's shutter crate is made of molded (or pressed) brass plates. Shimming the lens mount is the result of the design. Shimms can last a lot and be applied accurately.
Greetings
David Hughes
David Hughes
The 1941 Article
The 1941 Article
Since writing the opening post to this thread I have managed to track down a copy of the November 1941 magazine "Miniature Camera" in which the article about the FED 1 appeared. If I'd know what was involved I would never have started as I went round and round in little circles at times but then had a bright idea and went direct to the source, ie the British Museum Library. Only it's called something else these days, I forget what...
I would like to scan the document and paste it here but can't for copyright reasons: that's something I care about as I've had dozens of my paragraphs and pictures stolen over the years.
Anyway, the story starts before the war (and I guess that means mid to late 30's) and the author of the article mentions two people who had told him about a camera very much like the Leica that they had either seen or handled. Then in (?) mid 1941 a Col. Symonds of the British Mission to Moscow mentioned during a BBC radio programme that the Russians were producing a miniature camera which was the "equal" of the German one. Following some enquiries, a customer of Wallace Heaton's in London was put in contact with the magazine's editor and he was able to get his hands on what appears to be a FED 1 but fitted with a copy of the f/2 Summar lens. In the picture it looks like the front end of a Summar on an Elmar focusing mount, with the infinity lock at about 10 o'clock and a rimmed metal lens cap with a "blocky" lettered "FED", perhaps, embossed on it.
The magazine was also lent a 10.5 cm f/6.3 FED lens with the same lens cap and a black screw on rear lens cap. The lens barrel appears to be machined from aluminium, rather like later ones. Having got their hands on the camera and lenses I guess that a film was put through it as the article says that not only was the camera copied "screw by screw" but the performance and definition of the lens "are strictly comparable" and that looking closely at the photographs taken with it the FED showed "exquisite sharpness".
Their admiration for the way they had improved on the original by making the two range-finder images different colours and their praise for the lenses was slightly moderated by comments on the range-finder cam of the FED being only a "flat piece of metal" instead of a hardened steel roller; the quality of the engraving and the smell of the leather used for the ERC.
And that's really all I can glean from the article which had four photographs of about third of a page each showing the top and a three quarter view of both the FED 1 and Leica IIIa with their two lenses. The rest of the article mentioned that the FED was the property of an officer in the RAF who was a member of the British delegation in Moscow, where he had bought the camera. Plus a brief description of a Russian made exposure meter in a circular casing.
Anyone interested in getting a copy of the article (three pages) from the British Library should be warned that you can buy FED 1's with the Elmar copy for less money. The title of the article was "And Now the Bally Leica" (a dreadful pun involving an English euphemism, fwiw). It appeared on pages 588, 89 and 90 of the magazine and the library's copy is bound, so each page will be curved slightly on one side. I'll add that the magazine is small bu our standards, about 5½" x 8½".
It might be an idea to see if a bulk order could be given to them which might cut the cost a little...
Regards, David
The 1941 Article
Since writing the opening post to this thread I have managed to track down a copy of the November 1941 magazine "Miniature Camera" in which the article about the FED 1 appeared. If I'd know what was involved I would never have started as I went round and round in little circles at times but then had a bright idea and went direct to the source, ie the British Museum Library. Only it's called something else these days, I forget what...
I would like to scan the document and paste it here but can't for copyright reasons: that's something I care about as I've had dozens of my paragraphs and pictures stolen over the years.
Anyway, the story starts before the war (and I guess that means mid to late 30's) and the author of the article mentions two people who had told him about a camera very much like the Leica that they had either seen or handled. Then in (?) mid 1941 a Col. Symonds of the British Mission to Moscow mentioned during a BBC radio programme that the Russians were producing a miniature camera which was the "equal" of the German one. Following some enquiries, a customer of Wallace Heaton's in London was put in contact with the magazine's editor and he was able to get his hands on what appears to be a FED 1 but fitted with a copy of the f/2 Summar lens. In the picture it looks like the front end of a Summar on an Elmar focusing mount, with the infinity lock at about 10 o'clock and a rimmed metal lens cap with a "blocky" lettered "FED", perhaps, embossed on it.
The magazine was also lent a 10.5 cm f/6.3 FED lens with the same lens cap and a black screw on rear lens cap. The lens barrel appears to be machined from aluminium, rather like later ones. Having got their hands on the camera and lenses I guess that a film was put through it as the article says that not only was the camera copied "screw by screw" but the performance and definition of the lens "are strictly comparable" and that looking closely at the photographs taken with it the FED showed "exquisite sharpness".
Their admiration for the way they had improved on the original by making the two range-finder images different colours and their praise for the lenses was slightly moderated by comments on the range-finder cam of the FED being only a "flat piece of metal" instead of a hardened steel roller; the quality of the engraving and the smell of the leather used for the ERC.
And that's really all I can glean from the article which had four photographs of about third of a page each showing the top and a three quarter view of both the FED 1 and Leica IIIa with their two lenses. The rest of the article mentioned that the FED was the property of an officer in the RAF who was a member of the British delegation in Moscow, where he had bought the camera. Plus a brief description of a Russian made exposure meter in a circular casing.
Anyone interested in getting a copy of the article (three pages) from the British Library should be warned that you can buy FED 1's with the Elmar copy for less money. The title of the article was "And Now the Bally Leica" (a dreadful pun involving an English euphemism, fwiw). It appeared on pages 588, 89 and 90 of the magazine and the library's copy is bound, so each page will be curved slightly on one side. I'll add that the magazine is small bu our standards, about 5½" x 8½".
It might be an idea to see if a bulk order could be given to them which might cut the cost a little...
Regards, David
David Hughes
David Hughes
I've looked around and it seems that the camera illustrated in the article is/was a FED-C with the f/2 50mm lens, or rather that's my best guess.
I guess this is the earliest known review of them...
Regards, David
I guess this is the earliest known review of them...
Regards, David
photovdz
Well-known
fed C or S... are quite interesting as they come randomly in the production but are usually beter finished and always coupled with the f2 50mm
I own two of these beasts and they are very quiet and soft to use...
I own two of these beasts and they are very quiet and soft to use...
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Nice find! Great discovery that the 1941 article was on the FED-S
I owned two but sold one recently. The other one was about to be chopped up to a fake Leica when they discovered it was a Komandirsky FED-S (wonder if it got that name from the British officer, what was his rank?) My FED-S has been to Fedka for a complete overhaul of both lens and camera, and I bought a 100/6.3 for it.
I'm looking for two flat-front old logo FED lens caps and the 100mm finder, anybody that can spare some of these?
BTW, I'd love to know any depicted serial number in the article?
I owned two but sold one recently. The other one was about to be chopped up to a fake Leica when they discovered it was a Komandirsky FED-S (wonder if it got that name from the British officer, what was his rank?) My FED-S has been to Fedka for a complete overhaul of both lens and camera, and I bought a 100/6.3 for it.
I'm looking for two flat-front old logo FED lens caps and the 100mm finder, anybody that can spare some of these?
BTW, I'd love to know any depicted serial number in the article?
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Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
Fed-S
Fed-S
I have one of these lovely beasts as well, manufactured fairly late in 1941 shortly before the factory was overrun, from the serial number. When I received it the shutter was somewhat gummed up, but that was fairly easy to deal with. Apart from having stayed idle for a very long time, it shows almost no signs of use. The results with the f2 are maybe a bit contrastier than with a Summar, but maybe that's because this example is not covered with cleaning marks as is usually the case with Summars. The vulcanite is better than that of contemporary Leicas, in my opinion. The chrome plating on the lens barrel, as was the case with many Soviet products of this time, is superb. The matte chrome finish on the baseplate and top is pretty good, and somewhat coarser than the Leica's finish. The engraving is - adequate. Everything works well, but the winding and shutter release effort is significantly heavier than a Leica. The leather case that came with it is the best quality camera case I have ever seen, regardless of make. The postwar FEDs I have seen are at a much lower level of finish, so I think they were trying a bit harder in the prewar period.
Cheers,
Dez
Fed-S
I have one of these lovely beasts as well, manufactured fairly late in 1941 shortly before the factory was overrun, from the serial number. When I received it the shutter was somewhat gummed up, but that was fairly easy to deal with. Apart from having stayed idle for a very long time, it shows almost no signs of use. The results with the f2 are maybe a bit contrastier than with a Summar, but maybe that's because this example is not covered with cleaning marks as is usually the case with Summars. The vulcanite is better than that of contemporary Leicas, in my opinion. The chrome plating on the lens barrel, as was the case with many Soviet products of this time, is superb. The matte chrome finish on the baseplate and top is pretty good, and somewhat coarser than the Leica's finish. The engraving is - adequate. Everything works well, but the winding and shutter release effort is significantly heavier than a Leica. The leather case that came with it is the best quality camera case I have ever seen, regardless of make. The postwar FEDs I have seen are at a much lower level of finish, so I think they were trying a bit harder in the prewar period.
Cheers,
Dez
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je2a3
je
Thank you David H. for posting your research! Was there any mention of film to flange registration and compatibility with Leitz lenses in the article?
Here's my Fed S:
I acquired it a few years back from a US seller and was the only bidder. Shutter was stuck but intact, with a little TLC I was able to bring it back to life. The 'Leica' engraving looks like a later addition.
Unfortunately I cannot use other lenses because the mount and registration is not standard. Mechanically it is of much higher standard compared to post WWII Fed-1s and later Zorki-1s. Operation is almost as smooth (but not quite) as my Leica II.
Here's my Fed S:
I acquired it a few years back from a US seller and was the only bidder. Shutter was stuck but intact, with a little TLC I was able to bring it back to life. The 'Leica' engraving looks like a later addition.
Unfortunately I cannot use other lenses because the mount and registration is not standard. Mechanically it is of much higher standard compared to post WWII Fed-1s and later Zorki-1s. Operation is almost as smooth (but not quite) as my Leica II.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Thank you all for the replies and especially the picture.
There's very little I can add to what I managed to extract from the article. The magazine was very small, about A5, and wartime quality plus photocopying meant it was grey on grey. Very few facts were given, only the lens apertures and focal lengths. The article, apart from the photo's would have covered just over half a page.
Mostly we got how he got his hands on it, and why, then the main trust of the article was how well it performed and what a good copy it was. The Leica used for comparison had the filled engravings but not the FED, not even on the shutter speed dial. So I can give the Leica's serial number 333277 but little else.
The lens cap on the FED was the stepped rim style and not like the one in Dez's picture.
The engraving on the FED can't be read but you can just about count the lines and guess that the top line was "FED". I'd put my money on it being a type 4 or 1946 but the article is clearly dated 1941...
What I found interesting was that the author of the article had known about it for some years and had been looking out for one. Luckily someone working in Wallace Heaton's was aware of this and was able to speak to a customer who had the FED.
BTW, the bound magazine is in the reserve library (somewhere in Yorkshire) and so getting my hands on it and so on would be difficult and expensive (and involve a trip for it and me to London) but it's not impossible. Finding a copy on ebay would probably be easier.
Regards, David
There's very little I can add to what I managed to extract from the article. The magazine was very small, about A5, and wartime quality plus photocopying meant it was grey on grey. Very few facts were given, only the lens apertures and focal lengths. The article, apart from the photo's would have covered just over half a page.
Mostly we got how he got his hands on it, and why, then the main trust of the article was how well it performed and what a good copy it was. The Leica used for comparison had the filled engravings but not the FED, not even on the shutter speed dial. So I can give the Leica's serial number 333277 but little else.
The lens cap on the FED was the stepped rim style and not like the one in Dez's picture.
The engraving on the FED can't be read but you can just about count the lines and guess that the top line was "FED". I'd put my money on it being a type 4 or 1946 but the article is clearly dated 1941...
What I found interesting was that the author of the article had known about it for some years and had been looking out for one. Luckily someone working in Wallace Heaton's was aware of this and was able to speak to a customer who had the FED.
BTW, the bound magazine is in the reserve library (somewhere in Yorkshire) and so getting my hands on it and so on would be difficult and expensive (and involve a trip for it and me to London) but it's not impossible. Finding a copy on ebay would probably be easier.
Regards, David
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David Hughes
David Hughes
Another Sighting...
Another Sighting...
This one is from 1945 and is in the October edition of "MCM", which I've mentioned before. It's just an advert from a Scottish dealer that lists amongst other items
"Fed, f/3.5 lens, equivalent Leica II, E.R. case, as new, £52=10/="
And in 1945 there were 4 US dollars to the UK pound. So I make that USD 206.
As a yardstick, the same dealer offers a Leica IIIa, Summar and ERC also as new for £92 =10/=
The London dealers were charging a little more, say 4%, for Leicas, btw. It seems the war-time price restrictions on second-hand cameras were now relaxed.
Regards, David
Another Sighting...
This one is from 1945 and is in the October edition of "MCM", which I've mentioned before. It's just an advert from a Scottish dealer that lists amongst other items
"Fed, f/3.5 lens, equivalent Leica II, E.R. case, as new, £52=10/="
And in 1945 there were 4 US dollars to the UK pound. So I make that USD 206.
As a yardstick, the same dealer offers a Leica IIIa, Summar and ERC also as new for £92 =10/=
The London dealers were charging a little more, say 4%, for Leicas, btw. It seems the war-time price restrictions on second-hand cameras were now relaxed.
Regards, David
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Reviving the old thread, since I'm selling my kit in the classifieds today. It contains two different-model FED 100/6.3 lenses and the illustrious FED 28/4.5, and a lot of accessories.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
Hi, Johan. I am interested in the FED 28mm lens you mention, but I cannot find it in the classifieds. Can you tell me some more about it please?
Cheers,
Dez