Film and vegetarianism

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tojeem

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Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

What do we think on the issue of gelatine in film? Being a vegetarian I was appalled to find that they haven't yet replaced it with a synthetic alternative, though I suppose they have no reason to. I'm not ready to give up my hobby and passion :( And I suppose this applies to digital printing as well: most glossy photo paper also uses gelatine.

I read an interesting article on veganoutreach.org discussing the issue, outlining the differences between symbolic and practical vegans - those who take a stance on everything animal-derived, and those who limit their battles to those which can actually make a difference. Their argument was that, as gelatine is merely a by-product (and a largely unavoidable at that, now there's gelatine in most toothpastes and soaps), "symbolic" veganism will do little to alter the industry, and that it would be impractical and of little consequence to avoid photographic film on the basis of its gelatine. I must admit I'm inclined to take this philosophy myself.

There must be plenty of vegetarians/vegans on this forum who still use film. A penny for your thoughts.

Stephen
 
tojeem said:
I read an interesting article on veganoutreach.org discussing the issue, outlining the differences between symbolic and practical vegans - those who take a stance on everything animal-derived, and those who limit their battles to those which can actually make a difference. Their argument was that, as gelatine is merely a by-product (and a largely unavoidable at that, now there's gelatine in most toothpastes and soaps), "symbolic" veganism will do little to alter the industry, and that it would be impractical and of little consequence to avoid photographic film on the basis of its gelatine. I must admit I'm inclined to take this philosophy myself.
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Sounds like a cop-out. You start by saying that you do not want to stop using film and then you look for justifications that confirm what you have already decided. But it doesn't work that way. If you want to follow through 100% on your moral beliefs you will have to make sacrifices. Otherwise you'll have to accept, like most of us, that life is full of moral grey areas and that sometimes you want to do things that go against some of your moral beliefs.

I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan, though I respect anyone who wants to live that way. What annoys me (and this is in no way directed at you) is this trend I see in the discourse on veganism where vegans try to justify their lifestyle choice not just by a moral argument but also by saying that any kind of animal product is unhealthy.

If you're concerned about the well being of animals (which is a good thing, IMO) I'd say just try doing the best you can without making yourself miserable.
 
tojeem said:
There must be plenty of vegetarians/vegans on this forum who still use film. A penny for your thoughts.

Stephen
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Hmm, you play with a cat but you don't eat the cat, you shoot film but you don't eat film - it works, no?

P.S.

BTW, I eat meat
 
Interesting story on NPR about the hipsterfication of animal butchery where-in a young vegan gives up his life as a snobby Barista and interns with a couple specializing in pork butchery. He goes on learning the art of pork butchery for two years while doing film documentation about the process of knowing exactly the provenance of food on his table.
The interesting connection is the side story of the young photographer who has grown up knowing only digital format, realizes the limitations, and then transforms herself by going completely Trad with film development and printing on fiber base paper with wet chemistry. Both individuals regain the soul of life by renouncing their radical vegan lifestyle, turn to eating a balanced diet obtained by hard work on a family scale farm, and turn a less than inspiring digital workflow into a much more fulfilling film and gelatin silver print process.
 
Jamie123 said:
I'm neither vegetarian nor vegan, though I respect anyone who wants to live that way. What annoys me (and this is in no way directed at you) is this trend I see in the discourse on veganism where vegans try to justify their lifestyle choice not just by a moral argument but also by saying that any kind of animal product is unhealthy.
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Yes I find this a little disconcerting with vegan friends as well.

To OP - I would say if you are vegetarian for your own beliefs try to uphold them where practical, but you must understand that as you move around in the world and even as you breathe you're killing thousands of living/breathing organisms every minute. Best you can do is limit the major things as much as possible.
 
rodneyAB said:
Interesting story on NPR about the hipsterfication of animal butchery where-in a young vegan gives up his life as a snobby Barista and interns with a couple specializing in pork butchery. He goes on learning the art of pork butchery for two years while doing film documentation about the process of knowing exactly the provenance of food on his table.
The interesting connection is the side story of the young photographer who has grown up knowing only digital format, realizes the limitations, and then transforms herself by going completely Trad with film development and printing on fiber base paper with wet chemistry. Both individuals regain the soul of life by renouncing their radical vegan lifestyle, turn to eating a balanced diet obtained by hard work on a family scale farm, and turn a less than inspiring digital workflow into a much more fulfilling film and gelatin silver print process.
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If this sort of thing is true, I think it's amazing. Every man should know exactly where his food has come from, and how it is obtained. The only way we can be all truly grateful for what sustains us is to kill it and prepare it ourselves - my father taught me this long ago.

As a side note, the kalahari bushmen will often apologize to a buck after they have killed it, explain that they need the meat to feed their families, and that nothing will go to waste.
 
If you were vegan yea you would think using gelatine based film is wrong but if your only vegetarian that is not eating meat. If your not using/eating anything with any animal products that makes you vegan right? So if your only vegetarian than shooting film with gelatine is fine
 
Stephen I saw a post here a few days ago about kodak selling their gelatine division. Yes I was a little surprised to know that animals were slaughtered to make film. When it was pointed out I too figured it was a synthetic product.
 
Last night I had dinner at a Brazilian barbecue restaurant, the kind of place where large pieces of meat are carried around on metal skewers the size of swords, and the server cuts off however much you like with a huge knife. There were steaks, roasts, beef, pork, chicken, and sausage. It was all-you-can-eat, for only $70 per person (a bargain in Japan).

For better or worse, all living things survive by eating other living things, or things which were living. My eating meat troubles me no more than a shark is troubled when it eats a person. Plants are no less alive than animals, and eating them also does not trouble me.

I took lots of pictures of the different dishes, but I used a digital camera.
 
It is a fact that I kill each day without even knowing it. I try to limit this but I cannot avoid every ant or insect. I cannot be vegan or even vegetarian for medical reasons. This is unpleasant for me but I accept some of the limitations of this life. I hope this is not a pointless remark, but my thinking is rather muddled about morality of these issues.
 
Frontman said:
For better or worse, all living things survive by eating other living things, or things which were living. My eating meat troubles me no more than a shark is troubled when it eats a person. Plants are no less alive than animals, and eating them also does not trouble me.
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I eat meat, too, but what you're saying is a bit of a cop-out aswell. The problem many people have with eating meat is not necessarily the simple fact of eating an animal but the industrialized 'production' of meat.
 
If this really bothers you then there are a number of synthetic base films on the market, such as Ilford SFX 200, and a few of the Rollei and Efke films. I am neither vegetarian nor vegan but have tried these films just for fun. They are not all IR as with the SFX, but then if you shoot IR without a filter do you not get normal exposures? Some of them, such as Rollei's Superpan 200, have very limited latitude and they have a tendency to very fine grain. I'm also not aware of any that are high speed or that you can push. However, if your moral convictions are so strong against use of animal products then you should look into these. I think they are made of polyester, which then triggers the question whether our dependency on hydrocarbons is doing more damage to our planet than our position in the food chain.

Cheers,
Rob
 
Frontman said:
My eating meat troubles me no more than a shark is troubled when it eats a person. Plants are no less alive than animals, and eating them also does not trouble me.
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You must surely make a difference between an animal acting on instinct, an a moral being who has a choice. Some people become vegetarian because they decide they can live and eat healthily without causing suffering to other living things.
 
If you are a vegetarian, I can't see why it would bother you, since it's only the meat and not the by-products you refrain from. If anything, you should use the film so that every part of the creature that had it's life taken is used, that nothing goes to waste.

If you are a vegan, that's when it's time to start looking for synthetics :D
 
robbeiflex said:
If this really bothers you then there are a number of synthetic base films on the market, such as Ilford SFX 200, and a few of the Rollei and Efke films. I am neither vegetarian nor vegan but have tried these films just for fun. They are not all IR as with the SFX, but then if you shoot IR without a filter do you not get normal exposures? Some of them, such as Rollei's Superpan 200, have very limited latitude and they have a tendency to very fine grain. I'm also not aware of any that are high speed or that you can push. However, if your moral convictions are so strong against use of animal products then you should look into these. I think they are made of polyester, which then triggers the question whether our dependency on hydrocarbons is doing more damage to our planet than our position in the food chain.

Cheers,
Rob
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I think what you are referring to is the base of the film being made from polyester, rather than acetate.

The emulsion however is still made with gelatin.
 
tojeem said:
Being a vegetarian I was appalled to find that they haven't yet replaced it with a synthetic alternative, though I suppose they have no reason to.
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In film's heyday there was a huge amount of research put into identifying cheaper replacements, including synthetic ones, but no good ones were ever identified.

Marty
 
I am sure that were the photographic film industry growing rather than a beleaguered niche our medium would soon be made from something less primitive than boiled animal bones. But it is not and that is unlikely to change. (Although there is a chance that synthetics might become easier to handle for companies not so invested in legacy processes and equipment as the current main players.)

I justify my film use (to myself, not to anyone who wishes to categorize others' stance on personal moral boundaries) on the double count of the animal being long gone by the time we consider what to do with the bones and because my use of gelatin in film is tiny in the scheme of things.
 
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