firmware update & magneta cast

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usccharles

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here is something interesting. my gloves have always been purple before the firmware update. but now they are black only under certain conditions.

purple-vi.jpg


blackglove-vi.jpg


the inner flap in my notebook bad has a purple tint in real life. thats not a purple cast

so purple cast is still there and IR filters will still be necessary but the firmware update fixes some purple cast under certain lighting/background conditions.

i'm happy :)
 
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not to be a naysayer, but I still see a lot of purple in the second shot.. and given that the first one appears to be almost 2 stops overexposed (comparatively - looking at the whites in the gloves), it doesn't appear to be a massive improvement.

However. This is only one sample, and any improvement is a good thing. :)
 
i do agree, it does still have alittle purple. but its still baby steps forward and i'm all for forward. atleast the firmware update didn't start freezing up the camera :)
 
Trojan Charlie,
You have (exactly) recreated the dreaded and known IR torture test with your M8. In the first shot it appears as one would expect given the cameras sensitivity to IR light. In the second shot it appears to be less sensitive then my R-D1s. Is the only difference firmware 1.92? Really? If so then IR filters are optional for most situations when the updated firmware is installed.

Any down side to 1.92 that you can find? I am impressed. Perhaps I'll be a 1.92 adaptor earlier then expected. This is wonderful news for M8 users and potential buyers.
 
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no downside so far. took about 50 shots here and there and i definately see more blacks colors in my images than i used to. the image preview is noticiably quicker, i do think iso 1250 is less grainy, and the image preview with shutter speed and iso readout is a gem.

i think the update is good :)
 
Guys, firmware can't monitor or change the amount of IR in the shot or modify the spectral response of the sensor. All it can do is the same sort of thing that the C1 profile does, mitigate magenta to some degree, but at the expense of some other colors also to some degree. What I suspect--and it's pure suspicion--is that Leica has been trying to improve the white balance and that had a fortuitous effect on magenta. The M8's IR contamination alters other colors besides black-to-magenta, it would be interesting to see if that has been affected for the better as well.
 
I have to agree that the upgrade seems to be a step in the right direction.
Most noticeable are the improvements to the image review.
Auto white balance seems to be improved somewhat and improved noticeably in tungsten light.
I haven't done that much with iso above 320.
JH
 
Ben Z said:
Guys, firmware can't monitor or change the amount of IR in the shot or modify the spectral response of the sensor. All it can do is the same sort of thing that the C1 profile does, mitigate magenta to some degree, but at the expense of some other colors also to some degree. What I suspect--and it's pure suspicion--is that Leica has been trying to improve the white balance and that had a fortuitous effect on magenta. The M8's IR contamination alters other colors besides black-to-magenta, it would be interesting to see if that has been affected for the better as well.
Click to expand...

Charles, if you used aperture priority metering on both shots it may also be that Leica has changed the camera's response to the meter. The first shot is very overexposed. The second appears to be close to correct. I'd guess that overexposure is going to emphasize the magenta cast. On the other hand, the difference in exposure may be because of the backgrounds. In the first shot the background was considerably darker than in the second, which would cause the meter to overxpose in the first place and either expose correctly or underexpose in the second.
 
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I should have stated the "appearance"**of IR is reduced. I am not implying the firmware has lessened the M8's sensitivity to IR just the appearance of IR contamination. I have long held and posted that correcting WB and color profile post process significantly improves the appearance of IR contamination. The plus side with the new firmware (may) be that you'll need to tweak your photos less and that it may adjust the profiles to match different lighting conditions more accurately then post process. If Chuck's photo is any indication (very early to assume) then the M8's final product in terms of IR contamination seems to be on par with that of the R-D1 and most photogs agree this is of an acceptable level so much so that they almost never use IR cut filters with that camera. Time will tell but on the surface this appears to be very good news indeed.
 
I note you said it is too early to tell, and I'm not quarreling with you here, but the reason the RD1 has less of a magenta problem with blacks is because its sensor is less sensitive to IR. Even if the firmware does mitigate the black-to-magenta shift in the M8, like the C1 profile it must have some ramification for other colors, and won't necessarily mitigate other color changes caused by the IR sensitivity. Personally, as much as I reel at the need for IR filters, I would rather use them than have the camera making global tweaks to colors that will affect every shot regardless of whether there's IR contamination in them or not.
 
usccharles said:
here is something interesting. my gloves have always been purple before the firmware update. but now they are black only under certain conditions.

purple-vi.jpg


blackglove-vi.jpg


the inner flap in my notebook bad has a purple tint in real life. thats not a purple cast

so purple cast is still there and IR filters will still be necessary but the firmware update fixes some purple cast under certain lighting/background conditions.

i'm happy :)
Click to expand...

Looks better!

Just too bad it now renders beige as white :)

Over at LUF someone with a Heliopan IR states it's viceversa...

I'm happy with my M8 since january. I'll wait a couple of days before installing this new firmware...

Cheers,

Peter
 
Charles, I'm sure the difference you see has to do with difference in lighting in the two scenes. I bet if you use the new firmware in both scenarios, you'll see the same difference in magenta cast.
 
It is not a surprise to those who already used the more suitable colorprofiles for C1 that became available at LUF shortly after the M8 introduction ......
I still feel no need at all for the filters, perhaps in some very specific situations....!
 
This scenario was always the case wtih my cameras. It seemed to me to have something to do with both colour temp and angles of light hitting the fabric. There were some materials, however, that always appeared magenta.

Tim
 
ywenz said:
Charles, I'm sure the difference you see has to do with difference in lighting in the two scenes. I bet if you use the new firmware in both scenarios, you'll see the same difference in magenta cast.
Click to expand...


ywenz, both pictures are with the new firmware update :)
 
Ben Z said:
I note you said it is too early to tell, and I'm not quarreling with you here, but the reason the RD1 has less of a magenta problem with blacks is because its sensor is less sensitive to IR.
Click to expand...

The sensor is exactly as sensitve. However the IR filter is a bit more effective. But also the RD1 benefits from the use of IRcut filters.

Ben Z said:
Even if the firmware does mitigate the black-to-magenta shift in the M8, like the C1 profile it must have some ramification for other colors, and won't necessarily mitigate other color changes caused by the IR sensitivity. Personally, as much as I reel at the need for IR filters, I would rather use them than have the camera making global tweaks to colors that will affect every shot regardless of whether there's IR contamination in them or not.
Click to expand...

You are hitting the nail on the head here. Not only is the colour shift clear, even using the best C1 profiles, and now for JPG shooters the 1.092 firmware, which is a good step in the same direction, there is a clear boost in sharpness as well when using a filter, even in B&W. The only advantage in leaving the filter off is in B&W to flatten the contrast curve, as IR tends to lighten up shadows a bit.

For the record, I am no fan at all of using filters without clear positive effects, like protective or (often) UV filters. On the M8, the 486 ones might as well be superglued to my lenses.
 
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ok, can you tell i'm bored in my office? :)

here are some more pics of my gloves, hopefully with better exposure. they are all under flourescent light except for the last one which is under outdoor light.

it looks black as far as i can tell under fluorescent lighting. looks slightly purple under outdoor light.

this is a big improvement from the old firmware. these gloves have Always been purple before the firmware upgrade under any lighting.

i don't know how this affects any of the other colors but i don't notice anything negative so far.


fluorescent light:
L1002002-vi.jpg


L1002004-vi.jpg


L1002005-vi.jpg


L1002006-vi.jpg


L1002007-vi.jpg


outdoor
L1002009-vi.jpg
 
When your objects are on a light surface, your meter is underexposing. When your objects are on a dark surface, your meter is overexposing. You are getting varying results because of this. You need a more controlled experiment. Just a suggestion. But I can live with it, looks like a step in the right direction.
 
saxshooter said:
When your objects are on a light surface, your meter is underexposing. When your objects are on a dark surface, your meter is overexposing. You are getting varying results because of this. You need a more controlled experiment. Just a suggestion. But I can live with it, looks like a step in the right direction.
Click to expand...

yes, that is why some are underexposed and some are over exposed. i wanted to see if under/over exposure has an affect on black/purple. this is by for no controlled experiement, but under fluorescent light my glove seems to be black regardless of under/over exposure.

my original post with the purple glove was under tungsten light. so different lighting conditions (tungsten, fluroescent, outdoor, etc) i guess has a significant impact on magneta cast. i'm happy to see that the firmware update has improved the magneta cast issue under some lighting conditions :)
 
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