First Post ...

[Seanapolis]

Hi folks!

This is my first post. I've been a long time member of other forums (three years one place; four years the other) and ran across this place during a Google search. I've been lurking for a bit and have to compliment everyone on such a fantastic communtiy!

I'll make this short and to the point, as I've got many more threads to read! 😉

I'm a hobbiest photographer who never really put much work in to *understanding* what it was I was doing. In other words, everything was point-and-shoot without much thought. When the Digital Rebel debuted, I was firmly on that train and owned my Rebel for a little over a year. Then, this January, my fiancé's grandfather sprang a nice surprise on me. He knew I had a growing interest in really learning photography. So, he invited us over one night to show me has camera. His camera was a mint (and I mean, MINT) Pentax Spotmatic F, looking every bit as brand new as the day he bought it in the 70s. Being an engineer, he kept his camera spotless (no pun intended). He also had the following screwmount lenses:

Tamron 70-150mm f/2.8
SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4
SMC Takumar 85mm f/1.8
SMC Takumar 100mm f/1.4
SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 macro
SMC Takumar 17mm f/1.4 fisheye
SMC Takumar 28mm f/3.5
Tamron 35-80mm f/2.3-3.8
Vivitar 85-205mm f/3.5

Plus two Vivtar complete flash systems. Again, all in like-new, mint condition. The kicker came at the end of the evening when he told me I could have all of it. It was an amazing moment. What do you say in that situation? Thank you? Somehow it didn't seem enough to just say thank you, but that's all I could say.

Since January, I've been shooting film again, this time with my "new" Pentax (up to the point of buying the Rebel, I had a K1000 for years). And this brought about an interesting change. I no longer had the desire to pick up my Rebel and use it, as strange as that sounds. I no longer wanted to go shoot 25 pictures of the same subject, bring them back to the Mac, import them to iPhoto, look at them and throw them away, or ignore them. I had slowly been getting back to the basics of taking my time, looking for the right shot, learning to crop in the camera, learning to wait for the decisive moment. I was learning, for the first time, what it takes *make* the picture. I rushed out and bought the book "Understanding Exposure", the book by Bryan Peterson. I devoured it.

It really got to the point where my Rebel had been sitting for 6 weeks. Not touched. There just something so fundamental about walking the streets of a city with a Pentax Spotmatic vs. my Digital Rebel. With my Rebel, it felt out of place. With my Pentax, it felt right. So, in the end, I sold it. Crazy, I know. But I'm so in love with shooting film. Which brings me to my Google search which, ultimately, brought me here.

I've known about Rangefinders, but up to this point, I've never made the first photo with one. But I'm interested. Very interested. Since I'm like a lot of Rangefinder enthusiasts, I don't have $2000 plus to buy a new(er) Leica. So, after researching it, I'm down to considering two Rangefinders:

Bessa R3A
Leica M2

I've read good things about the Bessa, and the Leica, well, it's a Leica that comes recommended and is more budget friendly.

So, as a new member here, I'd like to seek your input on this.

Thanks.

 

[nwcanonman]

First, Welcome. You're learning to "see" and that is very important.
While I don't own the R3A or any Leicas, I do have a great Bessa R. My recommendation would be to try both of your choices (some stores let you rent) and feel what you like most about each in it's turn.
Have fun!

 

[back alley]

welcome.
that's quite a story and you are a lucky guy to have people like that in your life.

my only recommendation, if you have not used a rangefinder before, is to pick up a cheap fixed lens camera and play with that for awhile. rf cams are not for everyone as some people cannot get used to them. (something i find hard to comprehend)
if you like the rf experience then pick up a nice m2 and never look back and keep the fixed lens cam in the car for ready use.

as to a bessa or leica, well, have you heard of the canon p...?😉

joe

 

[Huck Finn]

What Joe said. 😎

Welcome to the conversation, Sean. 🙂

M2 or R3A. Hmmm . . . You couldn't have picked 2 more different cameras. It might help if you shared the thought process that led you to making these two your finalists.

Just a note about buying an older camera like the M2. Prices on ebay will vary widely. So will condition. You should probably expect to get it serviced (CLA) after you buy it, so add this to the purchase price unless the seller can provide you with something to show that it has had a recent CLA. This can run $250 - $300 or so.

One way to buy an M2 is to buy from a dealer who also services equipment, like Tamarkin in New York (www.tamarkin.com), or one who will warranty the sale. Or buy from an independent service technician, like Sherry Krauter (www.sherrykrauter.com), who sells some of the cameras she repairs. In these cases, you can buy with assurance that you will have a canera that works. The cost of service will be built in. But it will not come cheap. Sherry's current selection of M2's starts at $1100.

You might also want to add an M4-2 to your list. You can probably get it for the same price as an M2 & you will also get 28 mm frame lines.

Huck

 

[Seanapolis]

M2 or R3A. Hmmm . . . You couldn't have picked 2 more different cameras. It might help if you shared the thought process that led you to making these two your finalists.

It really comes down to the budget.

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that if a person wanted to explore Rangefinder photography, they couldn't go wrong in making a Leica their first camera. Understandably, this is an expensive first venture. I mean, what if Rangefinder photography isn't for them? A new Leica, or even an M6, is a major investment.

So, what about exploring less costly cameras? In doing some research I've learned there are fantastic older Rangefinders to be had: Yashica Electro 35 GX, Canon Canonet, Canon P, Argus C3, etc. Of course, we are talking about equipment that's anywhere from 30 - 50 years old, not that older, reliable cameras can't be found. The Leica M2 is one of the cameras on my list after all. My thinking is that it might be easier to find a more reliable M2 than, say, an Argus C3. I could be wrong however.

This leads me to add the Bessa R3A to my list. Here is a new Rangefinder that folks seem to really like and it's affordable in context to my budget.

 

[Seanapolis]

Just a note about buying an older camera like the M2. Prices on ebay will vary widely. So will condition. You should probably expect to get it serviced (CLA) after you buy it, so add this to the purchase price unless the seller can provide you with something to show that it has had a recent CLA. This can run $250 - $300 or so.

One way to buy an M2 is to buy from a dealer who also services equipment, like Tamarkin in New York (www.tamarkin.com), or one who will warranty the sale. Or buy from an independent service technician, like Sherry Krauter (www.sherrykrauter.com), who sells some of the cameras she repairs. In these cases, you can buy with assurance that you will have a canera that works. The cost of service will be built in. But it will not come cheap. Sherry's current selection of M2's starts at $1100.

You might also want to add an M4-2 to your list. You can probably get it for the same price as an M2 & you will also get 28 mm frame lines.

Huck

... And thank you for your input and information.

 

[wlewisiii]

First let me add my welcome to the thread.

Have you considered a FSU camera as an inexpensive way to find out if you like rangefinders? A Fed or Zorki would give you a good camera that would allow you to experiment a little bit and give you a possibly very nice lens that you can use on either the Bessa or Leica if you do decide to go that route in the end. There are a number of very good sellers out there (Fedka, Oleg and Alex-Photo come to mind) that can get you a known good camera and lens for a very reasonable price. I got a Fed 5 and Industar-61L/D for $9.99 - you can't get much less expensive than that for a fully functional interchangable lens camera.

Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy it and I look forward to seeing what you post here.

William

 

[kiev4a]

Welcome:

I noticed the Pentax outfit included the 17mm Takumar. I had one years ago and foolishly told it. It is a super lens.

William's idea isn't a bad one. Pick up a FED 5 from a reputable dealer. It's not Leica M2 but it will give you a feel for rangefinders. Some folks like RFs and some find it's not their cup of tea.

 

[back alley]

I had one years ago and foolishly told it.

what did you tell it?

😉joe

 

[JoeFriday]

I had one years ago and foolishly told it.

what did you tell it?

😉joe

joe, you're worse than I am!

anyway, howdy, Seanapolis.. you're getting some great advice here.. the one thing to remember is that you don't have to be in any rush to decide.. the Leicas have been around for 50 years, and will be around a lot longer.. and there are always deals on them to be found

one good reason to consider the Leica over the Bessa is if you decide rangefinders aren't your cup of tea (blashphemy, I know), you'll be able to sell it (quite easily) for what you paid.. chances are you'll never lose money on a Leica as long as it doesn't get damaged.. and even a damaged Leica is still worth something

but, as other people have mentioned, I'd recommend looking at a FSU (formerly Soviet Union) camera.. a Zorki, FED or Kiev is both interesting, and a big bang for the buck.. the lenses are quite good for the price.. and it'll always make a nice conversation piece, even after you decide to step up (which will probably happen once you decide if you prefer a Bessa, Leica or Mamiya medium format camera

 

[kiev4a]

I had one years ago and foolishly told it.

what did you tell it?

😉joe

You're gonna laugh. I sold it to get the cash to bump my 12 megahertz PC up to 32 megs of ram. (I also sold a Pentax LX about the same time to by computer accessories :bang:

 

[back alley]

oh that hurts!
joe

 

[phototone]

M4-2 does not have 28mm framelines.

M4-2 does not have 28mm framelines.

You might also want to add an M4-2 to your list. You can probably get it for the same price as an M2 & you will also get 28 mm frame lines.

Huck

Having just acquired an M4-2 I can with utmost clarity say that the M4-2 does NOT have 28mm frame lines. It has frame lines for 35, 50, 90, & brackets for 135.

Perhaps you mean the M4-P ??

 

[Huck Finn]

Thanks for catching my error, Phototone. Yes, it must have been an M4-P that I was looking at for possible purchase. (It's been a little while.) The M4-P, of course will command a higher price & therefore will not sell for the same price as either the M2 or the M4-2.

 

[Huck Finn]

It really comes down to the budget.

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that if a person wanted to explore Rangefinder photography, they couldn't go wrong in making a Leica their first camera. Understandably, this is an expensive first venture. I mean, what if Rangefinder photography isn't for them? A new Leica, or even an M6, is a major investment.

So, what about exploring less costly cameras? In doing some research I've learned there are fantastic older Rangefinders to be had: Yashica Electro 35 GX, Canon Canonet, Canon P, Argus C3, etc. Of course, we are talking about equipment that's anywhere from 30 - 50 years old, not that older, reliable cameras can't be found. The Leica M2 is one of the cameras on my list after all. My thinking is that it might be easier to find a more reliable M2 than, say, an Argus C3. I could be wrong however.

This leads me to add the Bessa R3A to my list. Here is a new Rangefinder that folks seem to really like and it's affordable in context to my budget.

Seanapolis, Cosina has two new cameras on the market at the same time - the R3A and the R2A.

The R2A offers the classic rangefinder 35/50/90 frame lines (as well as 75) with a fairly traditional .68 magnification. This camera also comes with autoexposure (AE).

The R3A offers a rarely achieved 1.0x magnification, but in order to accomplish this, Cosina had to replace the 35 mm frame lines with 40 mm frame lines. Even at that, many people find the 40 mm frame lines hard to see.

Your thinking on the subject makes a lot of sense. The M2 is a classic that was built to last a long time. It is a camera without a built-in meter, so it will challenge you to learn to guesstimate or will force you to carry a pocetable incident meter. Cosina has also developed an auxiliary meter to attach to the camera. If you decide that you don't like RF photography, you will be able to sell your M2 & recover a large chunk of your investment.

To offer some perspective, Leica sold over 300,000 of the M3 & M2 in the 14 years between 1954 and 1968. In the next 30+ years they have built cameras as close to that same standard of the '50s & '60s as they could, but have sold fewer rangefinder cameras in this longer period than they did during the hay day of the M3 & M2 - down from an average of about 20,000+ per year to about 8,000 per year since & declining below that in recent years. Failrly obviously SLRs took over the market during these decades & in the past couple of years the market has moved to digital. Most professionals - photo-journalists & others abandoned their rangefinders & made the switch.

Cosina looked at this and made the very sensible decision that the heavy duty build quality required for the needs of professional photographers is not required for the needs of photo-enthusiasts & hobbyists, who make up the potential customer pool in today's market. While such build quality is nice to have, most current RF users can do the job just as well with reasonable build quality, so that's what Cosina offers. Their cameras are the introductory level cameras that Leica doesn't offer. In the SLR world, Nikon, Canon, et al offer both a professional series & several other levels for amateurs & advanced amateurs. Leica never took this approach except for a few years in the '70s when they offered the CL for the amateur market.

So the Cosina Voigtlander cameras will be more modern & full featured with AE & a built-in meter & it is battery dependent. An all-mechanical M2 will offer a longer base line & professional build quality. Both are good choices for what they do. A Voigtlander Bessa R2 & the Rollei 35 RF are the all-mechanical, modern alternatives to the R2A & R3A for 35 & 40 mm frame lines. Also, if you poke around, you can still find the discontinued Konica Hexar RF with modern features like AE, meter, motorized film advnace & film rewind, but it will also have Leica build quality, Leica M-mount, & a long base line. It costs abouyt the same as a fully serviced & CLA'd M2. It's a nice compromise between the R2/3A and an M2.