Flash and the M2 , M3 , M4

[ikiru]

So who uses flash with their classic non ttl leica? I was doing some shots the other day and missing the pep of flash. Because it was quite low light, I was shooting at F1.5 at 1/30th of a second. Which is doable, but really hard when the subject it moving around like crazy, and you are having a hard time getting a clear shot. I managed to get one I liked, I did it hail marry style, Branced my hand above my head on a piller that was about 2 feet to my side, over top of some audience memebers heads, judged the distance difference from my eyes to that spot, and waited for the performer to return to the same spot. So I'm thinking I need a flash. I'd be interested to hear your M and flash methods, and I'd love to see some example photos. I know some bouncing or difusing will make it look better. What flashes do you use, best place to buy that pc adapter. Pretty much I want to know everything M and Flash related!

-jay

 

[Ben Z]

I use flash with my Leicas (never owned an M6TTL or a M7). Any old thyristor flash works, so never saw the need to shell out big bucks for the Metz or SF20/24. If you've got a flash even for another brand that has a non-TTL "auto" setting you don't have to buy another flash. And most big camera stores or camera shows you can find perfectly good thyristor flashes for $20 and under. If the flash has no female plug for a sync cord, you can get a hot-shoe adaptor that has the cord attached. I can't help you with the flash plug, the M4 has a standard PC and my M3 happened to come with one already installed in the X position. IMO the best compromise between economy and usefulness in bounce-diffusers are the little folding ones (Mini Softbox and Pocket Bouncer) made by Lumiquest. You can often find them used for almost nothing too. Unlike the Stofen Omnibounces, the Lumiquests aren't flash-specific, they attach with good old velcro.

 

[VinceC]

I use flash quite a lot, actually. With an RF, you can tell if someone blinked! Also, unlike with an SLR, you actually know the flash went off. It also simplifies exposure for a meterless camera. You just have to worry about F-stops.

Sunpak makes some nice flashes that both tilt and swivel, making them great for vertical bounce-flash or bouncing off a wall behind or beside you. I never leave home without one. They run $65 to $75 or so, can be used with extension cords out of the PC socket and have automatic settings with 400 speed film for f/4, f/8 and f/16, plus manual settings down to 1/16th power. With the auto at f/16 and a 2-stop neutral density filter, you can even do sunny-day fill fiash if you're inclined. Unlike the Vivitar 283, the Sunpak has a fairly low trigger voltage, so you can share it with many digital cameras without frying them.

 

[Dave H]

jay,

I've been thinking the same as you for my M2, then after my head started hurting with all the cogs and wheels grinding around in there I came to the conclusion I'd be better off getting a Nikon system who apparently do flash photography rather well by all accounts. After what Ben Z said though I might try out a cheapo just for the experiment.

Dave

 

[VinceC]

Here's what we're talking about. Shot taken for a lens test. Flash bounced off wall. 1/50 @ f/2.

 

[CameraQuest]

So who uses flash with their classic non ttl leica?

-jay

Comparatively few RF shooters use flash with any 35mm RF.

A good argument can be made that flash is a very anti RF style. Most shooters think they are better off with high speed films and fast lenses than flash on a RF.

part of the problem is that TTL RF technology (M6 TTL, M7, CLE) is literally more than a quarter of a century behind the latest Nikon or Canon flash technology. :bang:

When I need flash, I shoot Nikon. I practically never pack a flash with any RF kit.

Stephen

 

[Ben Z]

Dave H and CameraQuest: It seems like the camera manufacturers have brainwashed a lot of people about "smart flash" just like they're brainwashing everyone into thinking digital is "smarter" than shooting film 😀 Flash is not rocket science, even completely manual flash, and the auto-thyristor flash is about like using a Voitlander meter in the camera shoe vs a TTL meter. Even doing daylight syncro-sun with an auto-thyristor flash is pretty simple, all you need to do is pick a flash setting as if you're using faster film (1-2 stops depending on the effect you want), then set your ambient exposure using the same aperture. The problem with some older cameras including the Leicas (well, the new ones too) is the very slow sync speed. That makes it necessary to use a small aperture outdoors, which then makes it necessary to have a pretty powerful flash. In point of fact, the M6TTL/M7+SF20/24 don't address that issue either. Daylight syncro-sun with a cheap 70s leaf-shutter rangefinder is a pleasure, they sync to 1/500.

I've read a lot of balderdash about not using flash with Leicas only since the advent of these internet forums. It's like a cult taboo or something. I remember, and you can see pictures in old books and movies, of people using flash on rangefinder cameras going back to the 30s. Growing up everyone I knew who owned a Leica or a Contax or Nikon rangefinder used flash (first those fan-type bulb units, later electronic strobe). To me if you know enough about photography to use a manual camera for existing light, using flash on the same camera is really pretty much of a slam-dunk. Yes there are some situations when the auto thyristor is "fooled" more than a TTL flash would be. It's the same thing with non-TTL existing-light metering, so, again, if you know about photography it shouldn't be a problem to make the necessary compensations. The "computer" in a Leica is the photographer's brain.

 

[gns]

I used to use flash quite a bit with my M2's. I used a Norman 200b unit. Powerfull, fast recycle and lots of flashes per charge (at least in those days). After you use it a while, setting exposure manually just sort of becomes second nature. I still have it, but have not used it (or any flash) in years.

Gary

 

[FrankS]

What Ben said.

 

[Dave H]

Ben Z,

I agree that using and calculating exposures using manual flash isn't all that hard really, but I decided after a long think that I wouldn't use flash on my Leicas, ( I don't own a Nikon Flashmatic either), I just didn't like flash at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought many photographers in the 30's may have used flash because thier film was just so very Slow, and also wasn't the subject of the current Photo Competition once quoted as saying something about Pistol shots and operas.

love you all,

Dave

 

[johne]

Vivitar 283 makes any Leica-like rangefinder a good partner. The limit is the shutter speed of less than 1/50 sec.
Johne

Here is where an Oly RC shines! It can use flash at 1/500 sec.

 

[laptoprob]

I used a flash ony a little on my M2. Since Jano has it now I have no use for the flash cable. I got a Leica cable somewhere and put a regular narrow plug (the one that looks like a small audio plug) on the other end.
I will have a look for it if anyone is interested.

Rob

 

[Ben Z]

Ben Z,

I agree that using and calculating exposures using manual flash isn't all that hard really, but I decided after a long think that I wouldn't use flash on my Leicas, ( I don't own a Nikon Flashmatic either), I just didn't like flash at all.

Flash is nothing more than artificial light, just like a room light, except that you only see it for a zillionth of a second and it's very bright. I think a lot of the bad rep flash gets comes from the same reason the Leica framelines get a bad rep: it takes practice and determination to make them work. But given that, they work very, very well. It's easy to make up a rule like "Leicas aren't meant to be used with flash" or "Leicas aren't meant for precise framing" but it's a bit of a shame because you miss out on a very useful tool. It's a little like leaving your 3-wood and 5-iron in the car rather than practice learning to hit them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought many photographers in the 30's may have used flash because thier film was just so very Slow

It might have been a reason. But today's film (and digital even more) still has a limited range of contrast compared to the human eye, and flash is an effective way of dealing with that in many cases. Even with today's fast film, if you need to stop down for depth of field to make a certain shot work, there again is a use for flash.

 

[ikiru]

Ben,

I share your sentiment. I have used manual flashes before (with a minox 35) and it worked fine. But it really didn't have the capability of my Canon EOS with an external flash. That said, I want to learn how to wrangle more flexibilty out of a manual flash, as I like having control over everything (which is why I own a meterless leica!).


A 283 seems perfect in all ways except size, really I should probably buy one in combination with a smaller flash for traveling and light days.

DOF is one of the main reasons that I would like a flash, while I like OOF areas, there are times with quick action and low light, that prefocusing and a flash is ideal. Especially in the case of a rock performance, where no one is really paying attention and millions of little P&S flashes are poping off.

Regarding Fill flash let me see if I understand correctly:

Say my film is 400asa I look at 800 or 1600 asa charts on the flash and it tells me for 8-10 feet that I need set my camera to F8 for 800 asa and F16 for 1600asa.

Now since my shutter is at 1/60 that would be an awful lot of ambient light? Oh for a leica with a leaf shutter(drool)!

 

[Ben Z]

Regarding Fill flash let me see if I understand correctly:

Say my film is 400asa I look at 800 or 1600 asa charts on the flash and it tells me for 8-10 feet that I need set my camera to F8 for 800 asa and F16 for 1600asa.

Now since my shutter is at 1/60 that would be an awful lot of ambient light? Oh for a leica with a leaf shutter(drool)!

You're right about using the flash-desisgnated aperture for 800 or 1600-speed film. Then you would use whatever shutter speed would give the correct non-flash ambient exposure for that aperture. With 400 speed film, in "sunny 16" light, that would be 1/500@f/16 or 1/2000@f/8. So you're exactly right, a leaf-shutter would be best, as even an SLR with 1/250 sync speed wouldn't be enough in this case. The simple answer with the Leica is to use slow film. ISO 25 and 50 film is history, but 100-speed print film would let you shoot at 1/50-f/16 and give you a printable neg.

Actually, for syncro-sun with the Leica , a flash like a Metz 54MZ3 or Nikon SB24-5-6 etc is easier to work with than a 283 etc that dictate what aperture you have to use for each ISO. The Metz, in non-TTL-Auto, you input the ISO (in this case, 1 to 2 stops faster than your film) and the aperture you want to use (which still lets you get in under the skimpy 1/50 sync speed) and the flash adjusts its light output accordingly. That is, if it's got enough power.

 

[Rich Silfver]

 

[jaapv]

You're right about using the flash-desisgnated aperture for 800 or 1600-speed film. Then you would use whatever shutter speed would give the correct non-flash ambient exposure for that aperture. With 400 speed film, in "sunny 16" light, that would be 1/500@f/16 or 1/2000@f/8. So you're exactly right, a leaf-shutter would be best, as even an SLR with 1/250 sync speed wouldn't be enough in this case. The simple answer with the Leica is to use slow film. ISO 25 and 50 film is history, but 100-speed print film would let you shoot at 1/50-f/16 and give you a printable neg.

Actually, for syncro-sun with the Leica , a flash like a Metz 54MZ3 or Nikon SB24-5-6 etc is easier to work with than a 283 etc that dictate what aperture you have to use for each ISO. The Metz, in non-TTL-Auto, you input the ISO (in this case, 1 to 2 stops faster than your film) and the aperture you want to use (which still lets you get in under the skimpy 1/50 sync speed) and the flash adjusts its light output accordingly. That is, if it's got enough power.

Easier to use a ND filter and not change film. -or even a polfilter.

 

[jaapv]

Flash is nothing more than artificial light, just like a room light, except that you only see it for a zillionth of a second and it's very bright. I think a lot of the bad rep flash gets comes from the same reason the Leica framelines get a bad rep: it takes practice and determination to make them work. But given that, they work very, very well. It's easy to make up a rule like "Leicas aren't meant to be used with flash" or "Leicas aren't meant for precise framing" but it's a bit of a shame because you miss out on a very useful tool. It's a little like leaving your 3-wood and 5-iron in the car rather than practice learning to hit them.



It might have been a reason. But today's film (and digital even more) still has a limited range of contrast compared to the human eye, and flash is an effective way of dealing with that in many cases. Even with today's fast film, if you need to stop down for depth of field to make a certain shot work, there again is a use for flash.

Ben,
For once I agree with you 100 % 🙂 😉 , well.... 90%,but for the little digital remark. The newest digital camera's have a dynamic range of 8 stops to in some circumstances 10, disregarding all Photoshop-tricks which imo come under the same heading as fill-flash or preexposing the film etc. 8 stops is exactly the usable range for printing in the zone-system. What was good enough for Ansel is good enough for me 😛. It also happens to be the dynamic range of slide-film.

 

[dadsm3]

Simply beautiful. Mine is identical...
CEYOO and CHICO owners, those 22.5 batteries are still available at batterycountry.com
Grab a fedora and have some fun! Especially at a wedding, you'd be amazed at the looks of astonishment on people's faces.....
A word of warning though, these bulbs were produced when 100ASA was fast film.....they really kick out light, so make sure you use a lens that has F22......

 

[dcsang]

I'm with Ben.

Flash is painfullly easy; especially if you use something like a Vivitar 283 (auto thyristor). It's a no brainer as long as you don't try to get up in someone's face with the thing (which will likely result in overexposure and someone knocking you "upside your head" for blinding them) 😀.

I've always used flash when necessary - ever since I was a kid - I don't see how people think it's so complicated per se. To quote the Robbie Robertson tune "Somewhere Down The Crazy River" :

She said "There's one thing you've got to learn; it's not to be afraid of it."
I said "No, I like it, I like it, it's good."
She said "You like it now
But you'll learn to love it later."

Cheers
Dave