Folders Please

[pevelg]

After my experience with the Mamiya 7 (sold due to financial issues), I have had an longing for a MF camera. The slides and negatives from the Mamiya 7 are just too beautiful to let go. So, to stay within my budget and also to fulfill my MF desire, I am in the market for a MF folder. As I started to browse the threads here, I was overwhelmed my the amount of bodies/lenses available. So, I humbly ask for assistance in picking out a system. Here are my basic requirments:

-Shutter speed of at least 1/300, but 1/500 prefered
-Rangefinder a must, coupled prefered.
-6X6 format. Though I love the 6x7 (similar to 35mm), I would like to warm my heart to 6x6 as all projectors withing my budget cannot go above that. 6x4.5 is just too small.
-Small size. Pocketable would be the best.
-Good quality lens that is more or less flare resistant. Ability to work with color. Speed should be around f 3.5 or faster.
-Not sure how film winding works with folders. I'd like it were you won't make mistakes by advancing too little, too much. Being able to do multiple exposures would be nice.
-Price point below $300, and prefered to be as low as possible.

Any and all input will be appreciated.

 

[Krosya]

I'd look at Welta Welturs, Balda, etc. Maybe even Iskra.

 

[35mmdelux]

how beautiful is $300 MF against the mamiya 6x7 or hasselbad negs? why not pony up $150 and get a nice yashica 6x6 tlr?

 

[wlewisiii]

Iskra. FSU 6x6, auto film transport, doubles possible though a bit of a pain, excellent glass, excellent RF & the best of it's class VF (still not saying too much... )

Can be found for ~$100 to ~$200 in good condition. Make sure the film transport works before buying as that's it biggest weakness.

I still regret selling mine.

William

 

[pevelg]

how beautiful is $300 MF against the mamiya 6x7 or hasselbad negs? why not pony up $150 and get a nice yashica 6x6 tlr?

Because I want it easy to carry around and hopefully pocketable. Thus no TLR's.

I've looked at several ebay Iskra's and they sure look nice...

Krosya: I've looked at several of your images taken with the Welta.... They look great!!!

 

[chippy]

After my experience with the Mamiya 7 (sold due to financial issues), I have had an longing for a MF camera. The slides and negatives from the Mamiya 7 are just too beautiful to let go. So, to stay within my budget and also to fulfill my MF desire, I am in the market for a MF folder. As I started to browse the threads here, I was overwhelmed my the amount of bodies/lenses available. So, I humbly ask for assistance in picking out a system. Here are my basic requirments:

-Shutter speed of at least 1/300, but 1/500 prefered
-Rangefinder a must, coupled prefered.
-6X6 format. Though I love the 6x7 (similar to 35mm), I would like to warm my heart to 6x6 as all projectors withing my budget cannot go above that. 6x4.5 is just too small.
-Small size. Pocketable would be the best.
-Good quality lens that is more or less flare resistant. Ability to work with color. Speed should be around f 3.5 or faster.
-Not sure how film winding works with folders. I'd like it were you won't make mistakes by advancing too little, too much. Being able to do multiple exposures would be nice.
-Price point below $300, and prefered to be as low as possible.

Any and all input will be appreciated.

its quite a list of requirements pevelg, great though that you have this for at least this gives a starting point and something to work with/from. quite often people have no idea of requirements and the list is endless. however as with all things you will likely have to make some trade offs for one thing or another, not that they are bad. it makes it somewhat more difficult to get the ideal camera to within the budget, paricularly if you take into account the real possibility you may have to spend a little more money on CLA or service.

but instead of me just naming cameras atm perhaps i will comment on the 'list' if you dont mind.

Shutter speed of at least 1/300, but 1/500 prefered

yep why not, i would be the same. your choice would rule out the early compur rimset the later one just making 300, the compur rapid is 400 and your best preferance synchro compur but FWIW i test my shutters with a electronic tester and the early 1/250 and 1/300 compurs usually read pretty true. the compur rapid after being serviced usually will only reach 350 at best and the synchro compur isnt much faster 375 on average its a freak that goes over 420. one trade you can make if the speed is not fast enough for you is to use a ND filter it effectively has the same result as using a faster shutter speed

Rangefinder a must, coupled prefered

coupled rangefinder puts you on the edge of your $ limit and in many cases over..but well worth it. the thing with a non coupled rangefinder camera is that its not much more of a comprimise to just use a rangefinder accessory

6X6 format. Though I love the 6x7 (similar to 35mm), I would like to warm my heart to 6x6 as all projectors withing my budget cannot go above that. 6x4.5 is just too small

for your projector then 6x6 is neccessary, but if simular to 35mm is what you like then 6x9 is the same. a couple of 6x9 camera will take a mask for 6x6

Small size. Pocketable would be the best

truly small and pocketable will rule out most (all!) with coupled rangefinder, compared to say a perkeo . we all say they fit in your pocket but really who carrys the slightly bigger camera with coupled rangefinder in their pocket. but they will fit, better in a winter coat pocket though.

Good quality lens that is more or less flare resistant. Ability to work with color. Speed should be around f 3.5 or faster.

obviously a tessar 4 element type. even the pre-war uncoated work for colour just fine, its a myth they dont. they are more suseptable to flare but the same picture taken with a coated lens/post war folder will still be affected--use a hood whenever you can on both

Not sure how film winding works with folders. I'd like it were you won't make mistakes by advancing too little, too much. Being able to do multiple exposures would be nice.

old red window method you cant really go wrong--well you can if you wind it on too much but its as simple as reading number! easy for double exposes too. auto wind stop and double exposure pervention on later camera sometimes can give you a little trouble with frame overlap using some modern films, the mechanisms are sometime are bit a problem so you have to confirm or take the risk if the are working correctly. if they do work good then they are great although with the super issolette i dont think you can take double exposure (i dont recall ever trying). super baldax, various super ikonta models, super isolette will likely go over your budget..the iskra can be had cheaper as can the S/Ikonta 530/16 both with auto wind stop, not sure about being able to double expose though

Price point below $300, and prefered to be as low as possible

this is always the catch..the more you spend the more you get and remember that it may need some money spent after to cla. the ikonta i metion you can often get for under $200 , great camera but it will probaly need a service. not light or small to put in your pocket either and for that price no coated lens. a welta weltur would usually be over you $300 limit as well unless you were very lucky! happens though someone got a 6x9 weltur the other day for under $300..a little ruff but they usually go (if you can find one) for much higher (near twice that often)

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Iskra, and within the budget

Iskra, and within the budget

Iskra. FSU 6x6, auto film transport, doubles possible though a bit of a pain, excellent glass, excellent RF & the best of it's class VF (still not saying too much... )

Can be found for ~$100 to ~$200 in good condition. Make sure the film transport works before buying as that's it biggest weakness.

I still regret selling mine.

William

Right, there are other 6x6s with coupled rangefinders but few will fit your budget or have better specs than the Iskra I or II. The only thing against it is the weight for a 6x6, coat pocket should be double stitched.

Other makes: Mamiya 6 folder, Agfa/Ansco Super Isolette / Speedex, Ensign Autorange 220 will come close in specs but possibly not on the viewfinder and are more expensive. The Konica Pearl models are 645 but have a nice (maybe even better) viewfinder. Few others rival the viewfinder of the Iskra.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[pevelg]

Many thanks to everyone for the information thus far...

Here are some of my replies:

coupled rangefinder puts you on the edge of your $ limit and in many cases over..but well worth it. the thing with a non coupled rangefinder camera is that its not much more of a comprimise to just use a rangefinder accessory

Yet the more I think about it, the more I want it. 🙁 So.....

this is always the catch..the more you spend the more you get and remember that it may need some money spent after to cla. the ikonta i metion you can often get for under $200 , great camera but it will probaly need a service. not light or small to put in your pocket either and for that price no coated lens. a welta weltur would usually be over you $300 limit as well unless you were very lucky! happens though someone got a 6x9 weltur the other day for under $300..a little ruff but they usually go (if you can find one) for much higher (near twice that often)

Lets say I increase my price limit to $500, this including a possible CLA.

yep why not, i would be the same. your choice would rule out the early compur rimset the later one just making 300, the compur rapid is 400 and your best preferance synchro compur but FWIW i test my shutters with a electronic tester and the early 1/250 and 1/300 compurs usually read pretty true. the compur rapid after being serviced usually will only reach 350 at best and the synchro compur isnt much faster 375 on average its a freak that goes over 420. one trade you can make if the speed is not fast enough for you is to use a ND filter it effectively has the same result as using a faster shutter speed

On my Leica, 1/250 is my standard speed. I shoot mostly hand held, thus my requirement of speed. Also that I live in a VERY sunny and bright area. Some of the cameras have strange filter sizes, so it might be hard to get a ND (I use one for my Leica).

or your projector then 6x6 is neccessary, but if simular to 35mm is what you like then 6x9 is the same. a couple of 6x9 camera will take a mask for 6x6

Though I like 6x7 for it's likeness to 35mm, I rather move away from the traditional format and stick with 6x6. I think it can give me a new perspective. A 6x9 would thus be to similar. Now a 6x13..... 😀

truly small and pocketable will rule out most (all!) with coupled rangefinder, compared to say a perkeo . we all say they fit in your pocket but really who carrys the slightly bigger camera with coupled rangefinder in their pocket. but they will fit, better in a winter coat pocket though.

This is something I can compromise with. As long as I can still hand hold it and get steady shots.

Right, there are other 6x6s with coupled rangefinders but few will fit your budget or have better specs than the Iskra I or II. The only thing against it is the weight for a 6x6, coat pocket should be double stitched.

Other makes: Mamiya 6 folder, Agfa/Ansco Super Isolette / Speedex, Ensign Autorange 220 will come close in specs but possibly not on the viewfinder and are more expensive. The Konica Pearl models are 645 but have a nice (maybe even better) viewfinder. Few others rival the viewfinder of the Iskra.

Viewfinders I had completely forgot to think about. How are they compared to, say my M6TTL?

Considering my increase in price limit, I have narrowed down the list to the following cameras:

Super Ikonta III (with Tessar)
Super Ikonta IV (is price increase worth the meter?)
Balda Super Baldax 6x6
Super Isolette with f3.5 / 75mm Solinar
Weltur 6x6
Iskra I or II

Here are several questions regarding the above items:

1. How do the above folders compare regarding viewfinders?
2. It was stated that the Tessar was the best lens. In what regards? From my readings, it seems that many folders have lenses that preform poorly at speeds above F8. How do the above rate?
3. Is it better purchasing a cla'd folder (from an RFF member or maybe Jurgen) or buy one not and then send in?

Again, I appreciate all the input!!!

 

[shadowfox]

FYI,

The Super Isolette is also sold as Ansco Super Speedex in the USA. Usually these are cheaper on the big auction site because probably people don't know that it's really an Agfa Super Isolette. Same coupled rangefinder, same Solinar lens, no red window needed, just awesome.

This is what mine looks like:

and I like it very much, but did you say a budget of $500? ... 😉

 

[chippy]

Viewfinders I had completely forgot to think about. How are they compared to, say my M6TTL?

Considering my increase in price limit, I have narrowed down the list to the following cameras:

Super Ikonta III (with Tessar)
Super Ikonta IV (is price increase worth the meter?)
Balda Super Baldax 6x6
Super Isolette with f3.5 / 75mm Solinar
Weltur 6x6
Iskra I or II

Here are several questions regarding the above items:

1. How do the above folders compare regarding viewfinders?
2. It was stated that the Tessar was the best lens. In what regards? From my readings, it seems that many folders have lenses that preform poorly at speeds above F8. How do the above rate?
3. Is it better purchasing a cla'd folder (from an RFF member or maybe Jurgen) or buy one not and then send in?

Again, I appreciate all the input!!!

cant tell you how veiwfinder compare to an M6, someone may be able though.

the veiwfinder on the Weltur and S/Iso or speedex are near enough the same to each other. these would be my personal pick..well er i did pick em, they are great. i get the feeling you may prefer the Super speedex/Isolette with its extra bells and whistles.the weltur is simple sturdy, lighter and often the camera i choose to use in preferance.

tessar or tessar type lenses that you will find on these is about (IS) as good as you are going to get on a 6x6 folder. if you want more then you are going to have to move on to a different camera e.g. hasselblad, rolliflex ect. i personaly wouldnt choose the IKonta 4 (others may) for the light meter, just not worth it IMO

Weltur -tessar 4 element or xenar 5 element (performs near the same as the tessar tho)
S/Iso solinar- solinar are good tessar type-coated lens
Ikonta 3 obviously a tessar
S/baldax -Ennit, this camera with a Synchro compur shutter and Ennit lens are a little harder to come by (in this config) but i think its Steve on RFF has one and is very happy with it--he does report that the film wind is buggered (auto stop that is-he uses the red window) which seems to be common occurance with them. the VF appears to be on the large side. i would like to get my hands on one to check out the lens as well. they are apparently a weird set up,,4 element 3 groups (sounds like a tessar type so far) but the 2 cemented elements are apparently in the middle! i am not sure how they compare criticaly to a tessar, xenar, solinar but all that have them seem to like them.

as for performance, re above f8; it depends what your bench mark is but i think it fair to say that its nonsence that they are poor above f8. 2 stops down they are good (as with most good lenses they perform better 2 stops down) but they are still good opened up --a touch soft wide open but nice portrait-nice vintage lenses alround. much better end result with the larger neg than you would get using 35mm

 

[robin a]

Hi,I use a Balda Super Baldax with a Prontor SVS shutter B-1/300,SK Radionar 80/2.9 lens.Takes a great picture and is kinda what you're looking for as far as lens/shutter combo's go.Not too big either..............Robin

 

[robin a]

Hi,I use a Balda Super Baldax with a Prontor SVS shutter B-1/300,SK Radionar 80/2.9 lens.Takes a great picture and is kinda what you're looking for as far as lens/shutter combo's go.Not too big either..............Robin

Forgot to mention the coupled rangefinder.That's nice..........

 

[robin a]

Forgot to mention the coupled rangefinder.That's nice..........

And it takes 40.5 FSU size hoods and filters,easily obtainable.Damn,I like this camera....................Robin

 

[Abbazz]

-Shutter speed of at least 1/300, but 1/500 prefered
-Rangefinder a must, coupled prefered.
-6X6 format. Though I love the 6x7 (similar to 35mm), I would like to warm my heart to 6x6 as all projectors withing my budget cannot go above that. 6x4.5 is just too small.
-Small size. Pocketable would be the best.
-Good quality lens that is more or less flare resistant. Ability to work with color. Speed should be around f 3.5 or faster.
-Not sure how film winding works with folders. I'd like it were you won't make mistakes by advancing too little, too much. Being able to do multiple exposures would be nice.
-Price point below $300, and prefered to be as low as possible.

To me, the answer is clear: Mamiya Six Automat II. It has everything you want plus some extra features:
- Fully synchronized Seikosha-MX shutter with speeds from 1sec. to 1/500 sec.
- Coupled rangefinder combined with the biggest and brightest Albada viewfinder I have ever seen in a 6x6 folder camera.
- 6x6 format for those superb slides that will fit a Rollei or Hasselblad projector.
- Very pocketable when folded.
- Superb coated 4 element Mamiya Sekor 75mm lens with a maximum aperture of F/3.5 for those shots in dimly lit places.
- Full automatic film transport coupled with shutter cocking. You just load the film and wind it with the back open until the "start" mark on the backing paper aligns with a red dot on the film guides. Then you close the back and wind the film until it stops automatically; the exposure counter will then indicate "1". After each exposure, you wind the film until it stops. Winding the film also automatically cocks the shutter (very rare feature on a folding camera). After the 12th exposure, you wind the film until the end and remove it from the camera. You won't find an easier system on any other 6x6 folding camera.
- I bought mine for $225 on eBay but this is a somewhat rare camera so prices are highly variable.

Here are some pictures of my Mamiya Six Automat II:

Note the big wiewfinder:

The film pressure plate is detachable for easier film loading (make sure it is present when you buy the camera):

The very quiet Seikosha shutter offers 1/500sec and flash synchronization:

The superb 75/3.5 Mamiya Sekor lens:

The film advance knob with exposure counter:

The focusing mechanism on this camera is rather unique: the lens remains stationary while the film guides/film pressure plate assembly moves back and forth when focusing:

Cheers!

Abbazz

 

[Krosya]

All those cameras can be a good choice. Problem is - can you find one that works well, and if it doesnt - how difficult is it to fix it up.
Based on that I'd still go with my favorite - Welta Weltur. 6x6 one you can find for under $300. They are well made cameras and often are in good condition. They have good bellows too - I've had several and ALL had good bellows, something I cant say about others I tried. They are also easy to fix/adjust RF, clean VF, clean lens, etc. They usually have a very good Compur shutters, and very good and easy to clean lenses - I have a Xenar and I really like it. Lens hood is a good idea as they do flare. :

- I added a cold shoe for the CV meter on the top.
Here is a pic from this camera:

Let me comment on others I've had:
Balda Super Baldax ( I had 2 of those) - nice camera, had a coated Radionar lens. Mine had a working film counter/transport, not a bad VF. RF - so so IMO - I didnt like that slider on a lens to focus it (Iskra has something similar). IMO it's not as well made as Welta, but not bad. Radionar lens is also not as good as Xenar, IMO, but it's a personal thing. I like lens that does very well wide open and Xenar/Tessar are good that way. I found with Radionar I had to really stop down to get similar results. If you have to work on Balda - it's not bad, but not as simple as Welta, yet still doable.
Mamiya 6. I had one and while I like the idea of their focus system, where you move film and not the lens, on mine it was hard to adjust to focus well. Also I got impression that their shutters, bellows and struts are not up to same quality as well......Welta ( can you tell I love Weltas? ) 😉
All these can be found under $300 on ebay if you wait long enough. And often they can even be in a good shape. Just some minor cleanning and RF calibration.
VF - I really like Welta's, but they are all pretty good - really comes down to the condition that camera is in.
As far as Certo6 - I'd steer clear - you will overpay and that doesnt even guarantee that you will get a good camera. Many horror stories here on RFF about him. His web site is, however, rather informative - you can see some cool pictures of cool cameras.
CLA - I have CLA's all my folders and it's not that hard, really. Just need some practice. I never had to change bellows, but other than that - I have done pretty much everything else. Plus there are other , better places than Certo6 for CLA - just search RFF's folder section.

So, good luck with your quest!

 

[chippy]

All those cameras can be a good choice. Problem is - can you find one that works well, and if it doesnt - how difficult is it to fix it up.
Based on that I'd still go with my favorite - Welta Weltur. 6x6 one you can find for under $300. They are well made cameras and often are in good condition. They have good bellows too - I've had several and ALL had good bellows, something I cant say about others I tried. They are also easy to fix/adjust RF, clean VF, clean lens, etc. They usually have a very good Compur shutters, and very good and easy to clean lenses - I have a Xenar and I really like it. Lens hood is a good idea as they do flare. :

- I added a cold shoe for the CV meter on the top.
Here is a pic from this camera:

Let me comment on others I've had:
Balda Super Baldax ( I had 2 of those) - nice camera, had a coated Radionar lens. Mine had a working film counter/transport, not a bad VF. RF - so so IMO - I didnt like that slider on a lens to focus it (Iskra has something similar). IMO it's not as well made as Welta, but not bad. Radionar lens is also not as good as Xenar, IMO, but it's a personal thing. I like lens that does very well wide open and Xenar/Tessar are good that way. I found with Radionar I had to really stop down to get similar results. If you have to work on Balda - it's not bad, but not as simple as Welta, yet still doable.
Mamiya 6. I had one and while I like the idea of their focus system, where you move film and not the lens, on mine it was hard to adjust to focus well. Also I got impression that their shutters, bellows and struts are not up to same quality as well......Welta ( can you tell I love Weltas? ) 😉
All these can be found under $300 on ebay if you wait long enough. And often they can even be in a good shape. Just some minor cleanning and RF calibration.
VF - I really like Welta's, but they are all pretty good - really comes down to the condition that camera is in.
As far as Certo6 - I'd steer clear - you will overpay and that doesnt even guarantee that you will get a good camera. Many horror stories here on RFF about him. His web site is, however, rather informative - you can see some cool pictures of cool cameras.
CLA - I have CLA's all my folders and it's not that hard, really. Just need some practice. I never had to change bellows, but other than that - I have done pretty much everything else. Plus there are other , better places than Certo6 for CLA - just search RFF's folder section.

So, good luck with your quest!

i'm with you Krosya on the Weltur,,, hasnt got all the bells and whistles but its simple to use and excellent quality.

i am curious though what do you use (or how) do you get your pictures onto the interent. obviously a scan..but what scanner do you use. i want some way of showing pics but i only have a flatbed scanner atm so i can only scan prints and they never come out looking as good/clear as your pictures you are showing here

 

[Krosya]

I use Epson V700 scanner - flatbed but it can scan film. It does a pretty good job with 120 film and I do some minor fixup in PS Elements. Thats all. I think it's a great scanner for the money. I even prefer it to Nikon V for 35mm. Key is to get those film adapters right - they have little feet to adjust for focus. There was a good article on the web about this scanner and how to do all these things - but I dont remember the address to it. Google it, I'm sure you can find it.
I think it's (V700) a better option than Pro level ones for a non-pro photographer - well worth the money. Nikon scanner for 120 film is very good, but wayyyyy more $$$$ and for my needs I get what I like from the Epson.
Hope this helps - and I hope to see some of your pics here too!

 

[Krosya]

Here is that review about the V700 - helpful and was a main reason I got it:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson V700/page_1.htm

 

[chippy]

i've just been reading the first one..its pretty lenghty....
so far i am wondering if i can also scan the old imperial size and the euro size negs ,,such as 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 inch (whole plate and the half and 1/4 plate for matter) and the 6.5x9cm and 9x12cm ect ect....so far it seems it can scan 5x4 and i think it may do 8x10 as well

bit worried i may need to update my computer and buy photo shop ..and then a printer lol

 

[Leigh Youdale]

Scanning

Scanning

i am curious though what do you use (or how) do you get your pictures onto the interent. obviously a scan..but what scanner do you use. i want some way of showing pics but i only have a flatbed scanner atm so i can only scan prints and they never come out looking as good/clear as your pictures you are showing here

Andrew, have a look at the Mikrotek i800 from Proscan in Sydney. My i700 (previous model) comes with a set of negative carriers from 5x4, 6x17, 6x9 and down to 35 mm negs and mounted slides and will do neg scans as well as reflective. I drive it through Photoshop Elements using Silverfast SE. I think the full version of Photoshop is over the top for amateurs and too costly.