alienmeatsack
Well-known
I recently acquired a Pho-Tak Foldex 20 camera for a very reasonable price. These things are like tanks and IMHO very under appreciated for their unique images.
Mine looks and works great except for one thing. Something in the camera is scratching the living daylights out of the film as I wind it through.
When I first got it, I cleaned it up and noticed that there was a spot on the frame and pressure plate where it had obviously rubbed a lot. So I cleaned that up and very gently bent that spot back down and then using an assortment of fine files and my buffer tip on the Dremel, I smoothed it out like a baby's butt.
However, it's still rubbing in that spot and a few others. I think it may be the pressure plate who's coating is rubbed off.
I've considered flipping the PP around and trying a roll to see if the scratches move or change.
Any tips on how to troubleshoot and eliminate this issue?
This is before I did anything to try and fix the issue...
Untitled by alienmeatsack, on Flickr
You can see where the pressure plate and the framing rub, but there are several spots beyond that that also are scratching.
This is after I cleaned and polished it up. It seems to have gotten worse! Yet, the areas in question are now literally baby smooth. So I am confused as to why it's doing this.
Untitled by alienmeatsack, on Flickr
I thought maybe I needed to use some kind of paint or coating that is smooth over the areas once I fine sanded and polished them up more but I don't want to do antyhing until I know what the issue is.
My only other idea is to literally bend the whole framing system away from the pressure plate enough that it cannot push on the film as much. When I visually inspected the framing, it did not appear to be bent or out of whack.
Suggestions or thoughts?
Mine looks and works great except for one thing. Something in the camera is scratching the living daylights out of the film as I wind it through.
When I first got it, I cleaned it up and noticed that there was a spot on the frame and pressure plate where it had obviously rubbed a lot. So I cleaned that up and very gently bent that spot back down and then using an assortment of fine files and my buffer tip on the Dremel, I smoothed it out like a baby's butt.
However, it's still rubbing in that spot and a few others. I think it may be the pressure plate who's coating is rubbed off.
I've considered flipping the PP around and trying a roll to see if the scratches move or change.
Any tips on how to troubleshoot and eliminate this issue?
This is before I did anything to try and fix the issue...
Untitled by alienmeatsack, on Flickr
You can see where the pressure plate and the framing rub, but there are several spots beyond that that also are scratching.
This is after I cleaned and polished it up. It seems to have gotten worse! Yet, the areas in question are now literally baby smooth. So I am confused as to why it's doing this.
Untitled by alienmeatsack, on Flickr
I thought maybe I needed to use some kind of paint or coating that is smooth over the areas once I fine sanded and polished them up more but I don't want to do antyhing until I know what the issue is.
My only other idea is to literally bend the whole framing system away from the pressure plate enough that it cannot push on the film as much. When I visually inspected the framing, it did not appear to be bent or out of whack.
Suggestions or thoughts?
GaryLH
Veteran
Those look like emulsion side scratches issues.. So the issue has got to be on the body side not the pressure plate. I would Check the rollers..if no rollers check the bump out area and film gate.
Good luck
Gary
Good luck
Gary
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
I had to pull my Foldex out to take a look. I think the last thing you would want to do is mess with the pressure plate. The edges of the pressure plate are raised to rest on the edge of the film plane. So flipping the pressure plate would only make your issue worse.
One thing should be noted about the Foldex cameras - the film should never be wound on while the bellows are closed. If you did, that is probably your problem. If not, maybe you should take a picture of the inside of your foldex and share it with us.
One thing should be noted about the Foldex cameras - the film should never be wound on while the bellows are closed. If you did, that is probably your problem. If not, maybe you should take a picture of the inside of your foldex and share it with us.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
These scratches go from end to end on the film so it's not the bellows being closed I don't think. I mean, when I load it initially I'll wind it with it closed sometimes but I tend to open it to wind it most of the time.
I will take some photos of the inside for you guys to look at and maybe you can help me find the problem.
I thought just sanding and polishing the spots in the areas it was rubbing would help but that made it worse even though they are smooth now. All of the rollers are smooth too.
Anyway, I'll post some photos of it inside this weekend.
Thanks for your time on this, I appreciate it!
I will take some photos of the inside for you guys to look at and maybe you can help me find the problem.
I thought just sanding and polishing the spots in the areas it was rubbing would help but that made it worse even though they are smooth now. All of the rollers are smooth too.
Anyway, I'll post some photos of it inside this weekend.
Thanks for your time on this, I appreciate it!
film nut
Established
The pressure plate would be pushing against the paper backing of the film and would be impossible to scratch the film. The scratches are on the emulsion side of the film and not on the edges, so the only thing I would guess is that if you are winding the film with the bellows collapsed, the bellows would be rubbing against the emulsion of the film. Lay a straight edge across the rollers with the bellows collapsed and the back off and see if the straight edge touches the bellows.
Mike
Mike
Dwig
Well-known
Correct, although the pressure plate issues may still be part of the problem. This, of course, is based on the assumption that you are running standard 120 roll film through the camera and aren't using some antique stash of 220 which lacks a paper backing.
Other than the common bellows issue (bulging rearward against the film when collapsed), the most likely source of the scratches would be on the two sides of film gate. If there are rollers there they could be stuck (forcing the film to slide over them) or their plating could be failing and become rough. It could also be the metal edge of the film gate (failing paint or corrosion causing elevated rough spots).
Normally, the sides of the film gate are recessed to avoid contact with the image area. An overly heavy spring on the pressure plate, a rough pressure plate causing drag, and/or anything causing the supply spool to bind can make winding stiff and increase the film tension when wound. This can cause it to press more tightly against the gate dragging the film across the edges of the gate and possibly causing any rollers to bind.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
I had a closer look at it this morning, based on things you've suggested. I took a few quick shots with my phone to post as well.
The pressure plate, while having a worn spot, is very smooth. Last time I cleaned it, I took the pressure plate off and very carefully cleaned the worn spot and polished it so it would have the least amount of drag.
I used a straight edge (a scale I had handy) and ran it along the length of the frame mask.
It rested against the frame mask the whole way, never touching either of the rollers. So I now know the film is being pressed against the mask without the rollers intervening in anyway.
The mask itself appears to be smooth to the touch and even with no bends minus the spot that is worn as seen in these low quality images.
I have no idea if the mask is supposed to be that high vs the rollers, or if there's a way for me to fit the issue. I was thinking maybe I could try taping some sticky back felt material along those two edges to soften the surface area where the film slides, but was worried when I start a roll that might catch the film's leading edge.
The pressure plate, while having a worn spot, is very smooth. Last time I cleaned it, I took the pressure plate off and very carefully cleaned the worn spot and polished it so it would have the least amount of drag.
I used a straight edge (a scale I had handy) and ran it along the length of the frame mask.
It rested against the frame mask the whole way, never touching either of the rollers. So I now know the film is being pressed against the mask without the rollers intervening in anyway.
The mask itself appears to be smooth to the touch and even with no bends minus the spot that is worn as seen in these low quality images.
I have no idea if the mask is supposed to be that high vs the rollers, or if there's a way for me to fit the issue. I was thinking maybe I could try taping some sticky back felt material along those two edges to soften the surface area where the film slides, but was worried when I start a roll that might catch the film's leading edge.
Attachments
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
Hmmm, yours is different than mine. On mine the long sides of the film gate are raised slightly so the film shouldn't rub the short sides of the film gate at all. Yours must be an earlier version - there was obviously a reason they made this change!
Edit: you might try this: put a piece of scotch tape over the length of that side of the film gate where it is rubbing. The metal may be smooth, but it is still a lot harder than film. A piece of tape will be softer and may not scratch as badly, or at all.
Edit: you might try this: put a piece of scotch tape over the length of that side of the film gate where it is rubbing. The metal may be smooth, but it is still a lot harder than film. A piece of tape will be softer and may not scratch as badly, or at all.
oftheherd
Veteran
I really know nothing about these cameras, but I noted the area between the arrows in your photo seems a little rough. Could your pressure plate be forcing the film down on a part of the film gate? Could that also cause what I perceive to be a lack of proper focus? That is the film is not in the plane of focus.
I may of course be way off base.
I may of course be way off base.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
Actually that rubbed off spot is baby smooth. I sanded and polished it to a point that its actually smoother then the existing painted edges around it. And did same with the pressure plate itself.
I think I'm going to crank a roll of throw away film through it to note exactly where the scratches are so I can see if I can pinpoint and smooth them.
As far as the tape idea, I might try that! I thought maybe there was some kind of clear nail polish or something I could use on it to smooth it out. I was worried something like that would be slightly sticky and would catch on the film.
It's only a $15 camera but I really like the results from it and don't want to lose it. Honestly if it keeps doing this stuff I may end up just replacing it with another that does work and then hacking it some to see if I can fix it.
I think I'm going to crank a roll of throw away film through it to note exactly where the scratches are so I can see if I can pinpoint and smooth them.
As far as the tape idea, I might try that! I thought maybe there was some kind of clear nail polish or something I could use on it to smooth it out. I was worried something like that would be slightly sticky and would catch on the film.
It's only a $15 camera but I really like the results from it and don't want to lose it. Honestly if it keeps doing this stuff I may end up just replacing it with another that does work and then hacking it some to see if I can fix it.
mburns
Established
Smoothness is not enough. It seems that the mere texture that can be seen between your arrows is enough to gouge a film emulsion. If the rollers on your camera are within the area of the pressure plate, then the obvious fix is to ... .
alienmeatsack
Well-known
Is too...? Don't keep me in suspense here 
Scotch tape was suggested. Is there something smooth and more permanent I can do here? Minus bending down the frame mask area that the pressure plate pushes the film against?
I've not actually tried to pull the body of the camera apart to see if there's a way for me to evening and delicately bend that frame mask down a tad so the pressure plate doesn't push it into the rubbed off area.
Funny how I hold onto this cheap camera and put so much into making it work. I feel for each of my cameras and I want them all to work. I'm a shooter not a collector in my heart so working is important.
I had also hoped to get this one working well enough that I could use it to respool 620-120 film for using in another camera once I had a few spools trimmed down to work. I don't really think that is possible at this point since the film would be scratched before it was even used.
Scotch tape was suggested. Is there something smooth and more permanent I can do here? Minus bending down the frame mask area that the pressure plate pushes the film against?
I've not actually tried to pull the body of the camera apart to see if there's a way for me to evening and delicately bend that frame mask down a tad so the pressure plate doesn't push it into the rubbed off area.
Funny how I hold onto this cheap camera and put so much into making it work. I feel for each of my cameras and I want them all to work. I'm a shooter not a collector in my heart so working is important.
I had also hoped to get this one working well enough that I could use it to respool 620-120 film for using in another camera once I had a few spools trimmed down to work. I don't really think that is possible at this point since the film would be scratched before it was even used.
farlymac
PF McFarland
Actually, all these Foldex clones are crappy cameras (Rollex 20, Tower, Comet, and so on). I gave my Foldex away because of the lack of any quality in the images it produced.
Electrical Sub-Station by br1078phot, on Flickr
That said, there are some folks who like the effect. I just couldn't see wasting film on it. I only bought the camera because it looked better than the rusty Rollex 20 I already had, and still only paid ten dollars.
As to Alien's problem, it doesn't take much to scratch the emulsion. Though you may think that area is smooth, I can see the ridges that match your scratches quite plainly. You'll have to use the finest grained paper that an auto-supply place carries to get that truly smoothed out, then buff it with a cloth wheel.
PF
oftheherd
Veteran
When I was in the military, we often used what was called Croakas Cloth. I forget now what grain that is, but it is very fine grained. I remember being told in Junior ROTC that it could remove rust without removing the blueing. Many hardware stores carry it.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
I'll check into the polishing cloth, I am seeing others making the same kind of product online. I just need to figure out what grit levels I'll need. The stuff is expensive but since i Have other uses for it, I think it's worth the trouble.
farlymac, I actually like the look of the photos from it. They have a unique focused center with a fading blur extending outwards that is pleasing to me. I actually considered adding a smaller aperture disc in between the shutter assembly and the body and manually firing the shutter to compensate to see if this effect goes away.
I got the camera because it was super cheap and I didn't own a proper vintage folder. I figured it's shutter or lens would be shot and I'd end up turning it into a show piece or a pinhole camera. I like the photos it makes, just not the scratches.
Thanks again all for the input/feedback and suggestions! I will update the thread as I make progress. Worst case, the camera gets replaced and I use it to experiment. But at this point I'm on a mission to make it work sans scratches.
farlymac, I actually like the look of the photos from it. They have a unique focused center with a fading blur extending outwards that is pleasing to me. I actually considered adding a smaller aperture disc in between the shutter assembly and the body and manually firing the shutter to compensate to see if this effect goes away.
I got the camera because it was super cheap and I didn't own a proper vintage folder. I figured it's shutter or lens would be shot and I'd end up turning it into a show piece or a pinhole camera. I like the photos it makes, just not the scratches.
Thanks again all for the input/feedback and suggestions! I will update the thread as I make progress. Worst case, the camera gets replaced and I use it to experiment. But at this point I'm on a mission to make it work sans scratches.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
I've seen slide film shot with a foldex that looked really neat. I haven't used my Foldex 20, but I've used my Foldex 6.3 which has a steinheil triplet and produces very sharp photos.
mburns
Established
OK. I was thinking that you would want to grind down (and blacken) those areas so that only rollers touch the image area on the film. An extra advantage is that the vacuum seal of the bellows is thereby broken.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
My polishing cloths are due today. This means I can have a go at polishing that spot down this weekend. I am going to try and do just the spot in question with the polishing cloths first. If that does not do the trick I might Dremel the spot down with something more agressive, then repolish down to smooth.
If that doesn't work I may try bending or grinding the whole mask down and polishing it up so it doesn't really touch the pressure plate much if at all.
I am really hoping the first thing in my list works as I'd like to avoid having to spend so much time on such a cheap camera. I love the shots it takes, just don't know if its worth spending time and money on when I could buy another for $20 or less and swap working parts from one to the other.
To me, it's a cool looking camera as well as a piece of history so I want to get it working properly more then anything else.
If that doesn't work I may try bending or grinding the whole mask down and polishing it up so it doesn't really touch the pressure plate much if at all.
I am really hoping the first thing in my list works as I'd like to avoid having to spend so much time on such a cheap camera. I love the shots it takes, just don't know if its worth spending time and money on when I could buy another for $20 or less and swap working parts from one to the other.
To me, it's a cool looking camera as well as a piece of history so I want to get it working properly more then anything else.
farlymac
PF McFarland
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some lovely stuff done with these cameras. It's just not my cup of tea, and I'm not good at going out and purposely choosing subjects that would be good for it.
After you get it fixed, it should give you plenty of pleasure, and it's worth it because you like it so much. It's only time and effort, plus some sandpaper and paint. Old folders are great cameras to use, what with the large negative size. And your camera was designed to use 620 or 120 film, so it qualifies for use on either of those two film days.
Make sure to show us the results from your repair.
PF
After you get it fixed, it should give you plenty of pleasure, and it's worth it because you like it so much. It's only time and effort, plus some sandpaper and paint. Old folders are great cameras to use, what with the large negative size. And your camera was designed to use 620 or 120 film, so it qualifies for use on either of those two film days.
Make sure to show us the results from your repair.
PF
alienmeatsack
Well-known
farlymac - That's the beauty of the huge selection of film cameras that exist in our world. There is something for each and everyone one of us out there. We just have to find it!
I think at this point, I just want to get it working to a point I am happy that the scratching is minimal or gone so I can put it on the shelf with the other cameras to eventually be displayed and used as my mood strikes.
I have so many cameras, I can find something for any situation. And when friends ask me about it, I like that I can say "use this, it's easy!" and hand them something like this Foldex and give htem a basic rundown on how to use it and then we go shoot.
Mostly this one's become a "I must fix it" kind of OCD thing. I've already spent more on stuff to fix it then it cost.
I think at this point, I just want to get it working to a point I am happy that the scratching is minimal or gone so I can put it on the shelf with the other cameras to eventually be displayed and used as my mood strikes.
I have so many cameras, I can find something for any situation. And when friends ask me about it, I like that I can say "use this, it's easy!" and hand them something like this Foldex and give htem a basic rundown on how to use it and then we go shoot.
Mostly this one's become a "I must fix it" kind of OCD thing. I've already spent more on stuff to fix it then it cost.