redisburning
Well-known
I want to expand my LF setup. Looking at my images with the big big negatives, and realize that my future photography will probably be less images and a higher IQ demand for each one, I am seriously considering investing some cash into 4x5.
I have some 35mm stuff I could sell, but I would greatly prefer not to (I like everything I currently have that is worth anything). I will if I have to, however. Take that for what you will.
I currently own a Sinar F, a large Bogen tripod/head which I love, a Fuji 150/5.6 NW, loupe, some film holders and a cable release.
I feel like what I need to add to this short term is a folding 4x5 and a 90mm lens.
The latter seems like an easy choice tbh; I see that the Nikkor 90/4.5 is only about 4-500 on KEH. I realize it's large, but even with a folding 4x5 my usage will be limited to tripod. Slower and cheaper would be the Fuji 90/8, which I would get should my camera situation demand it.
A folder is where I'm struggling. I have the Sinar for real movements, but I'm really not sold on it for taking it places. I would like to purchase a folding 4x5 camera for travel and my criteria are:
1. adequate movements for landscape work but nothing extraordinary here
2. allows use of 90mm f4.5 or 5.6 (replaceable bellows?)
3. can be carried in my backpack closed without worry of damage to groundglass or standards. the lenses don't have to fold into it
4. ability to shoot portrait and landscape without putting the camera on my tripod sideways
5. I can actually purchase a lensboard for it
So, since budget is not really determined yet, I need some help figuring out what price range Im going to be in so I can see what it's going to take to make it happen. My hope is that I can get away with something in the Wista/Toyo price range rather than the Linhof price range.
I have some 35mm stuff I could sell, but I would greatly prefer not to (I like everything I currently have that is worth anything). I will if I have to, however. Take that for what you will.
I currently own a Sinar F, a large Bogen tripod/head which I love, a Fuji 150/5.6 NW, loupe, some film holders and a cable release.
I feel like what I need to add to this short term is a folding 4x5 and a 90mm lens.
The latter seems like an easy choice tbh; I see that the Nikkor 90/4.5 is only about 4-500 on KEH. I realize it's large, but even with a folding 4x5 my usage will be limited to tripod. Slower and cheaper would be the Fuji 90/8, which I would get should my camera situation demand it.
A folder is where I'm struggling. I have the Sinar for real movements, but I'm really not sold on it for taking it places. I would like to purchase a folding 4x5 camera for travel and my criteria are:
1. adequate movements for landscape work but nothing extraordinary here
2. allows use of 90mm f4.5 or 5.6 (replaceable bellows?)
3. can be carried in my backpack closed without worry of damage to groundglass or standards. the lenses don't have to fold into it
4. ability to shoot portrait and landscape without putting the camera on my tripod sideways
5. I can actually purchase a lensboard for it
So, since budget is not really determined yet, I need some help figuring out what price range Im going to be in so I can see what it's going to take to make it happen. My hope is that I can get away with something in the Wista/Toyo price range rather than the Linhof price range.
djonesii
Well-known
4X5 folders ....
4X5 folders ....
I recently sold off my 4X5 Alpenhause
http://alpenhause.com/
Very fun to work with, I had mine built with swing, but it never really had tilt.
Razzle builds them to
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/
There is another guy out there who builds them as well, but as not to violate his IP, no link provided.
So the Polaroaid 4X5 folder is alive and well.
Dave
4X5 folders ....
I recently sold off my 4X5 Alpenhause
http://alpenhause.com/
Very fun to work with, I had mine built with swing, but it never really had tilt.
Razzle builds them to
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/
There is another guy out there who builds them as well, but as not to violate his IP, no link provided.
So the Polaroaid 4X5 folder is alive and well.
Dave
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Do not neglect either the Technikardan or the Toho (NOT Toyo). Both accept Linhof boards. Both offer plenty of movement. Both fold down. The Toho is a lot smaller than most folders; the Linhof, comparable with most folders but a vastly more versatile camera.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Ron (Netherlands)
Well-known
I had the same trouble finding a large format which I can take with me when traveling - since I am in Europe I found a very nice - old (I don't want a rather modern camera) i.e. before WOII - 9x12cm camera and currently am selling 35mm camera's and lenses I didn't use anymore. Why not put your question also @ LF Photo Forum....
redisburning
Well-known
I should elaborate, Im not looking for the smallest or even a small option.
My main concern is being able to put it in the bottom of my backpack without worrying about the GG, something I dont feel my Sinar F gives me. That camera folds up a bit itself but monorail isn't really what Im looking for ATM.
Im looking for something like a Toyo 45A or Wista 45, I just want to make sure they meet my criteria above. I can potentially live with a slower 90mm.
My main concern is being able to put it in the bottom of my backpack without worrying about the GG, something I dont feel my Sinar F gives me. That camera folds up a bit itself but monorail isn't really what Im looking for ATM.
Im looking for something like a Toyo 45A or Wista 45, I just want to make sure they meet my criteria above. I can potentially live with a slower 90mm.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Perhaps a Linhof Technika would meet your needs. I used a mark IV a very long time ago and I still remember it with pleasure. If you can find one with the grip and the zoom viewfinder for a reasonable price, it would give you mobility on top of everything else.
jschrader
Well-known
I had a Linhof Technika IV. The best I ever have been using.
I don't know about prices now; when I bought it (20 years ago), it was ~ 1000 Euro for the camera.
I did not sell it but borrowed a friend, who is occasionally using it.
I had a 150 (Schneider) Symmar and a 90 mm Super Angulon.
I don't know about prices now, they are not really cheap in contrast to other film cameras.
The build quality of the Technika is incredible.
I don't know about prices now; when I bought it (20 years ago), it was ~ 1000 Euro for the camera.
I did not sell it but borrowed a friend, who is occasionally using it.
I had a 150 (Schneider) Symmar and a 90 mm Super Angulon.
I don't know about prices now, they are not really cheap in contrast to other film cameras.
The build quality of the Technika is incredible.
GaryLH
Veteran
I think some questions still need to be asked..
- since u are going to use a backpack - got a weight limit for just the body?
- I am assuming tripod, but any plan to use hand held occasionally
- need a rangefinder or gg enough?
- how much movement do u really need?
If need to movement is limited... The old press ca,eras may do very well.. Such as old crown graphic... Even Linhof made a press camera for a little while.
I have a soft spot for the Linhof cameras since it was my first LF type camera. I was lucky enough to get one at a reasonable price from a father of an acquaintance when I was still in college.
They are really heavy compared to other press style cameras, built to last, have a bit more movement then most, and maybe the most rigid camera I have ever come across vs the very lightly construct ones like the Tachahara. If u end up getting a Linhof and u think u may ended hand holding occasionally, make sure u find one w/ a grip.. The Linhof anatomical grip maybe one of the best designs out there.
The Horeman line is pretty interesting as well.
Not sure if u check out the general info about LF cameras on the LF forum but they have a lot of useful info there as well. Will post a link update to this thread later.
Then then are specialty cameras like the Cambo super wide out there.
The 9x12 plate/sheet film cameras are really fun, but not sure how long sheet film in this format will be available. Mainly coming out of Europe these days. Of course u can cut 9x12 down from larger sheet film if u have access to good darkroom.. And u can find roll film backs for most of these old cameras. When I was really into these cameras, I did a DIY ugly as **ll 9x12 to 4x5 adapter for it. There was a time when there were third party companies that made these types of adapters for 9x12 when 4x5 became very popular. I have only seen on the web two of these for sale.
In terms of your Sinar, outside of taking longer to setup, why not just cut a ground glass protector for it and use a short rail.. I have heard of people going down this approach before.
Anyway I rarely shoot LF these days.
Good luck
- since u are going to use a backpack - got a weight limit for just the body?
- I am assuming tripod, but any plan to use hand held occasionally
- need a rangefinder or gg enough?
- how much movement do u really need?
If need to movement is limited... The old press ca,eras may do very well.. Such as old crown graphic... Even Linhof made a press camera for a little while.
I have a soft spot for the Linhof cameras since it was my first LF type camera. I was lucky enough to get one at a reasonable price from a father of an acquaintance when I was still in college.
They are really heavy compared to other press style cameras, built to last, have a bit more movement then most, and maybe the most rigid camera I have ever come across vs the very lightly construct ones like the Tachahara. If u end up getting a Linhof and u think u may ended hand holding occasionally, make sure u find one w/ a grip.. The Linhof anatomical grip maybe one of the best designs out there.
The Horeman line is pretty interesting as well.
Not sure if u check out the general info about LF cameras on the LF forum but they have a lot of useful info there as well. Will post a link update to this thread later.
Then then are specialty cameras like the Cambo super wide out there.
The 9x12 plate/sheet film cameras are really fun, but not sure how long sheet film in this format will be available. Mainly coming out of Europe these days. Of course u can cut 9x12 down from larger sheet film if u have access to good darkroom.. And u can find roll film backs for most of these old cameras. When I was really into these cameras, I did a DIY ugly as **ll 9x12 to 4x5 adapter for it. There was a time when there were third party companies that made these types of adapters for 9x12 when 4x5 became very popular. I have only seen on the web two of these for sale.
In terms of your Sinar, outside of taking longer to setup, why not just cut a ground glass protector for it and use a short rail.. I have heard of people going down this approach before.
Anyway I rarely shoot LF these days.
Good luck
GaryLH
Veteran
LF forum link
LF forum link
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
About 3/4 way down the page, u will find a link to 4x5 roundup and one about using a monorail in the field. Pretty good general info page for those getting in LF work or trying something different then what u are doing. Plus some recommendations on lens trade-off for lighter lenses u may want to use in the field.
Gary
LF forum link
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
About 3/4 way down the page, u will find a link to 4x5 roundup and one about using a monorail in the field. Pretty good general info page for those getting in LF work or trying something different then what u are doing. Plus some recommendations on lens trade-off for lighter lenses u may want to use in the field.
Gary
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
I recently helped sell a Linhof super Technika V kit, so got to handle all of it in the course of shooting photos and packing etc. The camera itself with all its movements folds down to backpackable size, and certain lenses will fold inside. The Linhof varifocal finder is a dream.
Seawood Photo in California has a simple ST/V kit with the varifocal, grip, 90/8 Schneider and 150/5.6 Schneider for what seems to me a very generous price. (Far far less than new Master Technika bodies at B&H.) It's also listed on the Bay. Were I going in that 4x5 field cam direction, I'd have bought it already....
Seawood Photo in California has a simple ST/V kit with the varifocal, grip, 90/8 Schneider and 150/5.6 Schneider for what seems to me a very generous price. (Far far less than new Master Technika bodies at B&H.) It's also listed on the Bay. Were I going in that 4x5 field cam direction, I'd have bought it already....
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
My limited experience would suggest a Busch Pressman D, has adequate movements,a rotating back,light but rigid aluminum body,really easy to make lens boards,folds up with a Ektar 127, the ground glass is covered and it has gone on many motorcycle trips over my shoulder in a denim bag. The Kalart rangefinder if supplied is not too hard to set up for a variety of lens. I like it so much I bought a second!!!
Peter
Peter
Shac
Well-known
Have a look at these articles from the head bartender's site
http://cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm
http://cameraquest.com/techgrap.htm
http://cameraquest.com/supercov.htm
I have one of the superspeeds and it's rugged - limited movements but possibly enough for your needs
http://cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm
http://cameraquest.com/techgrap.htm
http://cameraquest.com/supercov.htm
I have one of the superspeeds and it's rugged - limited movements but possibly enough for your needs
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Just my two cents but the first thing I would do is buy a Graflex folding metal focusing hood on eBay. If your Sinar F has the earlier ground glass frame with the thumb notch, it is designed to accept the Graflex hood. This not only provides a method of daylight focusing but it does a nice job of protecting the ground glass. Of course a longer "hood loupe" (made by Toyo, Wista, Horseman, Chineses copies) allows you to keep the hood mounted for focusing.
Baring that, if you have the newer Sinar back design, then a flat undrilled Sinar lensboard will clamp in place and protect your ground glass.
On a 6" rail the Sinar F or Norma is fairly compact and weighs less than a Technika, with a lot more movements so you can twist things up with that 90/4.5 lens.
~~~
However do you really need a 90/4.5 or 5.6XL unless you are doing architecture? Probably not. But any of the slower Nikon, Grandagon, or Super-Angulon designs are still relatively large and not going to fold into any of the probable folding cameras like the Crown Graphic, Wista wood or metal folders, or the Technika.
You could get a purpose-built non-folding wide angle camera - with a Photo BackPacker case or some other sort of protection - which would be the ticket for taking advantage of a wide coverage lens. Ebony, Walker, and Shen Hao make such cameras and they are well regarded. They have lots of vertical movement which is what you want most of the time. Some have zero tilt so that they remain strong and parallel. You won't miss the tilt anyway.
Actually if you don't care about having the lens fold up and want a light, rigid, versatile 4x5 then simply get the >$1000 Chamonix F1 or N2 from Hugo "hugoz_2000@yahoo.com" <hugoz_2000@yahoo.com> they are the best light folders. I wouldn't even both looking at the relatively crude Toyo (or Deardorff!) or others that fold without protecting the lens. The Chamonix I had was surprisingly MORE rigid than some of the metal cameras I have owned - a very nice design and well made. Hugo is a great guy too, do your research, excellent reputation.
~~~
Personally I would look at getting an inexpensive Crown Graphic and using it precisely because it does fold up into a solid safe package with the lens attached and protected. The Crown has the most internal space, the Technika the least. On a flat lensboard you can fold a 75/6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon in a Copal 0, a 120-135-150 Sironar, or even the 58mm 180mm Sironar in a Copal 0. Schneider lenses tend to have larger filter diameters but you can easily do the 120-135-150 Symmars and APO Symmar-Ls. Also the 100mm Wide Field Kodak Ektar and a Schneider Angulon 90/6.8 will fit.
Kerry Thalmann has a webpage up with his thoughts on field camera lenses ~ I have used a late model, Linhof-selected 90/6.8 Schneider Angulon - the little 40.5mm model ~ and it is as sharp as the 90/4.5 Grandagon Green Stripe I also had. It just doesn't have the coverage and you need to shoot at f/22 to keep corners sharp. But it is a great field lens for a backpack and well matched to a Crown Graphic with minimal movements anyway.
Personally I want a camera that folds up with the lens attached, they make a lot of sense and keep things fast and compact. http://frankpetroniophotographer.tu...his-is-what-im-using-nowadays-and-i-am-pretty
But I'll defer to the forum experts here who have read a lot more about using the lenses and cameras I used to own, as they know best.
Baring that, if you have the newer Sinar back design, then a flat undrilled Sinar lensboard will clamp in place and protect your ground glass.
On a 6" rail the Sinar F or Norma is fairly compact and weighs less than a Technika, with a lot more movements so you can twist things up with that 90/4.5 lens.
~~~
However do you really need a 90/4.5 or 5.6XL unless you are doing architecture? Probably not. But any of the slower Nikon, Grandagon, or Super-Angulon designs are still relatively large and not going to fold into any of the probable folding cameras like the Crown Graphic, Wista wood or metal folders, or the Technika.
You could get a purpose-built non-folding wide angle camera - with a Photo BackPacker case or some other sort of protection - which would be the ticket for taking advantage of a wide coverage lens. Ebony, Walker, and Shen Hao make such cameras and they are well regarded. They have lots of vertical movement which is what you want most of the time. Some have zero tilt so that they remain strong and parallel. You won't miss the tilt anyway.
Actually if you don't care about having the lens fold up and want a light, rigid, versatile 4x5 then simply get the >$1000 Chamonix F1 or N2 from Hugo "hugoz_2000@yahoo.com" <hugoz_2000@yahoo.com> they are the best light folders. I wouldn't even both looking at the relatively crude Toyo (or Deardorff!) or others that fold without protecting the lens. The Chamonix I had was surprisingly MORE rigid than some of the metal cameras I have owned - a very nice design and well made. Hugo is a great guy too, do your research, excellent reputation.
~~~
Personally I would look at getting an inexpensive Crown Graphic and using it precisely because it does fold up into a solid safe package with the lens attached and protected. The Crown has the most internal space, the Technika the least. On a flat lensboard you can fold a 75/6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon in a Copal 0, a 120-135-150 Sironar, or even the 58mm 180mm Sironar in a Copal 0. Schneider lenses tend to have larger filter diameters but you can easily do the 120-135-150 Symmars and APO Symmar-Ls. Also the 100mm Wide Field Kodak Ektar and a Schneider Angulon 90/6.8 will fit.
Kerry Thalmann has a webpage up with his thoughts on field camera lenses ~ I have used a late model, Linhof-selected 90/6.8 Schneider Angulon - the little 40.5mm model ~ and it is as sharp as the 90/4.5 Grandagon Green Stripe I also had. It just doesn't have the coverage and you need to shoot at f/22 to keep corners sharp. But it is a great field lens for a backpack and well matched to a Crown Graphic with minimal movements anyway.
Personally I want a camera that folds up with the lens attached, they make a lot of sense and keep things fast and compact. http://frankpetroniophotographer.tu...his-is-what-im-using-nowadays-and-i-am-pretty
But I'll defer to the forum experts here who have read a lot more about using the lenses and cameras I used to own, as they know best.
Matus
Well-known
If you are looking into clamshell cameras for more safety and robustness than you have several options:
- Technika, V, 2000, 3000
- Toyo , AX, A, AII
- Vista SP, VX
In general these cameras will be on the heavier side compared to wood field cameras (Tachihara, Chamonix, etc) and may have limit back movements. Whether that matters depends on you style and preferences.
Camera that would stand out in the crowed would be Arca Misura if money is no objection
But if one of your main concerns is the mechanical stability/robustness when folded, just get a GG protector or soft case from http://www.photobackpacker.com (I have several, they are great)
There indeed are field monorails that are compact and sturdy - for example Toyo VX125 (I am currently selling mine) or Arca Swiss F, but I am not sure whether that is of interest to you as Sinar F is basically a (bit heavier) field monorail.
EDIT: Read the advice above from Frank twice. It is worth it.
- Technika, V, 2000, 3000
- Toyo , AX, A, AII
- Vista SP, VX
In general these cameras will be on the heavier side compared to wood field cameras (Tachihara, Chamonix, etc) and may have limit back movements. Whether that matters depends on you style and preferences.
Camera that would stand out in the crowed would be Arca Misura if money is no objection
But if one of your main concerns is the mechanical stability/robustness when folded, just get a GG protector or soft case from http://www.photobackpacker.com (I have several, they are great)
There indeed are field monorails that are compact and sturdy - for example Toyo VX125 (I am currently selling mine) or Arca Swiss F, but I am not sure whether that is of interest to you as Sinar F is basically a (bit heavier) field monorail.
EDIT: Read the advice above from Frank twice. It is worth it.
redisburning
Well-known
Frank, I will look into your solutions for the Sinar as soon as I get back home. Whether I get a folding camera or not, I would like something to that effect anyway.
As far as 90 goes, I know it is wide but I prefer to work with a wide that is that wide along side a "normal" like the 150. In addition, what I intend to do with it is a major departure from what I currently do where such fields of view make little sense. The Nikkor 4.5 seems to have issues with being too big to work with some cameras, I would like to know if it will work with the Toyos and Wistas though. Otherwise, I think one of the f8 models will be my selection. That will come second though.
While the price of the crowns are attractive, having enough rise/fall and front tilt are a necessity here. I do like to take pictures of buildings, and while the last time I got to do it I intentionally abused leading lines, Id prefer to tackle that endeavor with movements the next time I do it.
I don't need pretzel level movements as I am not interested so much in focal plane experiments. But I do need enough to be able to mount the camera eye level and keep everything straight up and down.
As far as 90 goes, I know it is wide but I prefer to work with a wide that is that wide along side a "normal" like the 150. In addition, what I intend to do with it is a major departure from what I currently do where such fields of view make little sense. The Nikkor 4.5 seems to have issues with being too big to work with some cameras, I would like to know if it will work with the Toyos and Wistas though. Otherwise, I think one of the f8 models will be my selection. That will come second though.
While the price of the crowns are attractive, having enough rise/fall and front tilt are a necessity here. I do like to take pictures of buildings, and while the last time I got to do it I intentionally abused leading lines, Id prefer to tackle that endeavor with movements the next time I do it.
I don't need pretzel level movements as I am not interested so much in focal plane experiments. But I do need enough to be able to mount the camera eye level and keep everything straight up and down.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Thanks Matus
BTW if you search around online there is a good description of a tricky way to fold a Sinar monorail into a more compact "packable" package that protects the ground glass and mounted lens quite well. If you used one of the photobackpacker type cases or simple Domke padded wraps then you can carry it pretty easily. It's still bulkier than most field cameras but you do get the huge movements, extra stability, and versatile expansion potential.
The large 90/4.5 Nikkor (or Grandagon) will work with any of the popular field cameras you mention. Some lenses that get a bit larger have rear elements that are snug or too large for the front standards and if you do a large amount of rise on something like a Wista then the rear element will press against the bellows. They are really best for architectural cameras like the Sinar which has a much larger lensboard and bellows.
The 90/8 Nikkor, Schneider or Fuji or the 90/6.8 Grandagon are really nice matches for most field cameras even if they won't close inside ;-p you get about an inch of movement stopped down.
BTW if you search around online there is a good description of a tricky way to fold a Sinar monorail into a more compact "packable" package that protects the ground glass and mounted lens quite well. If you used one of the photobackpacker type cases or simple Domke padded wraps then you can carry it pretty easily. It's still bulkier than most field cameras but you do get the huge movements, extra stability, and versatile expansion potential.
The large 90/4.5 Nikkor (or Grandagon) will work with any of the popular field cameras you mention. Some lenses that get a bit larger have rear elements that are snug or too large for the front standards and if you do a large amount of rise on something like a Wista then the rear element will press against the bellows. They are really best for architectural cameras like the Sinar which has a much larger lensboard and bellows.
The 90/8 Nikkor, Schneider or Fuji or the 90/6.8 Grandagon are really nice matches for most field cameras even if they won't close inside ;-p you get about an inch of movement stopped down.
Jani_from_Finland
Well-known
If you know that website with this information, then why not posting it? Would be very interested in looking in to it, but not in searching thru dussins of sites.
ChrisN
Striving
I have a soft spot for the Ebony SW45, but short of finding the $$ for that I think the outfit Frank describes is very practical.
Nokton48
Veteran
I've been collecting the Sinar Norma system for 30+ years, so of course I would suggest going for that. I carry the 8x10" Norma in the field, I just throw it over my shoulder (attached to the tripod) and can hike for miles. And I have. When I get to where I'm going, I am glad I have it with me.
The 90mm f4.5 Nikkor on a 4x5 Sinar Norma would be absolutely awesome. And easily packable. And indestructible. That is not the case with the Sinar F's (I can break them!). Not so the Normas.
The Leica M2 of view cameras. Also cheap as dirt.
The 90mm f4.5 Nikkor on a 4x5 Sinar Norma would be absolutely awesome. And easily packable. And indestructible. That is not the case with the Sinar F's (I can break them!). Not so the Normas.
The Leica M2 of view cameras. Also cheap as dirt.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
If I had cared to bookmark then I would but we're left to Google... so 15 seconds later I found the correct diagram in the middle of this thread: http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/006RYL
My old friends at the http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ would be helpful, although you tend to get dozens of different expert opinions from people who have never used a large format camera... not unlike other photo forums ;-p
This guy is out to sell stuff but he has a lot of minutia to ponder: http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm his whole website is kind of a treasure trove of overpriced but really cool stuff.
As for other tidbits, I just sort of picked them up over the years of owning and breaking cameras.