Food for thought

He lost the serious side of me right here:

"If film has a future we better take a look at the movie industry where a most interesting debate is raging between the old school and the new school of movie making or between Lucas and Spielberg."

I didn't know there were only two directors left.

And then:

"Lipkin argues with force that the famous dictum by Cartier-Bresson about the decisive moment is irrelevant to digital photographers. Digital photography are tools for synthesizing images in the same way as the traditional still life is composed."

Sometimes the Direct Object loses sight Indirect Object verb makes action on the predicate is what subject are we talking about anymore is this sometimes?

Perhaps I need to re-read it. Let me get some wine.
 
Last edited:
gabrielma said:
He lost the serious side of me right here:

"If film has a future we better take a look at the movie industry where a most interesting debate is raging between the old school and the new school of movie making or between Lucas and Spielberg."

I didn't know there were only two directors left.
I didn't know Spielberg was old school. Rohmer, Bresson, that's old school... Spielberg is just another despicable agent of the entertainment industry.

Vincent
 
Hmmm. He's right in the points he makes, but he makes them clumsily and he become both confusing and pedantic when alternately praising and condemning digital; I am left not knowing what his point is.

His statement "For film to survive we need an honest appraisal of its outstanding features and characteristics" is just plain wrong. There is nothing 'we' can do to ensure the survival or demise of film - that train left some time ago. At no time has technical superiority ensured supremacy or even survival - at checkers or warfare. That is logic that loses battles.

And I have quoted extensively from the records of the motion picture associations that make it quite clear that their own 'digital or film' war is long over as well. Erwin has not done his homework. Both Hollywood and Bollywood know exactly when their day of reckoning comes due, and are making haste slowly in the direction of digital. Don't believe me, read the trades.

He also failed to mention that silver is at or near a 22 year high right now. Film is poised to go through the roof in price - by late summertime, I'm guessing. That combined with lowered demand should put the last nails in. Might not affect already-made and stocked B&W in Eastern Europe and China for some time yet, though.

In any case, as much as I still find this a fascinating topic, I'll withdraw. My opinions are well-known and much despised on this subject, and it will shortly degrade to shouting and name-calling (of Erwin, which I dislike seeing), so I'll cut to the chase and go.

However, it was a good read and thank you for posting it - for my own personal sense of enjoyment.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Yeah. I had to re-read him three times. OK, I get his points now to make the only one he needed to make. It's hard to take him seriously when he comes across as being on some horse ("A recent claim by the marketing department of Zeiss, that they had succeeded in resolving 400 linepairs per mm with the new 2.8/25mm ZM lens on yet another special and super film (yawn yawn) and developer, this time one of the Spur developers by the German company Schain is far beyond honesty. It is simply impossible. The 2.8/25mm has been tested by me quite extensively and will deliver at most 200 linepairs per mm on aerial (projected) resolution")

He really could deliver this "point" some other way. Overall it's an interesting read; it's just painful to do the actual reading for many reasons. I've always felt he could *really* use an editor. I know that getting a publishing editor is not a phantasy. To be fair, it's his own site. Then again, after so many years of writing under his belt...

His observations on leaving the "debate" are dead-on. The different technologies should be left as that, not one taking over the other. His painting analogy was apt.
 
Last edited:
gabrielma said:
His observations on leaving the "debate" are dead-on. The different technologies should be left as that, not one taking over the other. His painting analogy was apt.

Arrrgh! Sorry, I *really* wanted to leave this alone, but I find I cannot. I'll try once more, God help me. Forgive me in advance, if you can.

His painting analogy is not apt - in fact, it is as incorrect as it could be, and worse, it attempt to redraw the lines of the debate to his own liking.

Photography, as Mr. Puts well knows, has gone through revolution after revolution. From the Pictorialists to f/64 to Polaroid-Squeezers Unlimited - photography has never stopped evolving - which is what art does. Painting as well.

The digital recording device that replaces film is no more soulless or contrived than a collection of photons affecting silver halide such that it is converted to metallic silver in a chemical process later on. All else is basically left be - there is a lens, a shutter, an aperture, a light-tight box. What then, is different besides the recording medium? And even this - film took the place of glass plates, which in their turn took the place of wet collodion - and how did each one stop being photography and become a new creature? The answer, obviously, is that it did not.

Mr. Puts offers us a sop - well, he opines, digital technology could well offer even more resolution than film - tut, tut. But he then implies that what is done to it in (we are left to presume) Photoshop afterwards renders it without a connection to a photograph any longer - it is, in fact, more like a painting; an interpretation, not a reliable recording.

Oh, puh-leeze. Darkroom alchemists and reclusive powder mixers have been concocting, burning in, dodging out, changing contrast and perspective, altering focus, solarizing, and doing God-Knows-What to both negatives and photographs since before either of us were born. And as mentioned, photography has gone through a number of changes in terms of what is popular - gritty realism, or soft focus smoothness - or somewhere in between.

By throwing us the 'digital could well be higher resolution' bone, he hopes to carve out a niche for film to defend itself - you see, digital is a new kind of art - film is real photography. He then makes statements he doesn't even attempt to defend - photography, you see, is chemical in nature. Since digital is not chemical, the fact that a digital camera has an aperture adjustment ring or a shutter speed adjustment knob is of no consequence - it isn't a proper camera after all. He airly waves away with prejudice what he cannot argue away with logic.

He clearly wants a niche, he needs a niche, where he can stand and defend - ah, you see, this far and no further. Film owns this niche, as as such, will live forever. But there is no niche. And no point trying to make one now - the game is well up.

A camera is a camera. Film and digital are merely methods of recording images. Each has strengths, each has weaknesses. Film has the disadvantage that it's parameters are unlikely to change at this point - it is what it is - and it will undergo no new revolutions in composition or capability. Digital sensors have not even begun to properly mature yet. We cannot predict what the public will want when the DSLR hits 10 mp at a popular price - or 25 mp - or 100 mp.

One thing is true - and he missed it entirely. The much-reviled CEO of Kodak recently introduced the wireless camera that can send photos over a wireless LAN type network (Canon has one too) and said essentially that they don't know if that's what the public wants or not - but now is the time to experiment with new forms, new ideas - new concepts about what the public wants in a camera, what they want a camera to do. Because film made a particular requirement in terms of size and shape of the camera bodies, digital cameras have aped that up to now. It may be that they no longer need to.

Why not a DSLR, for example, in which the sensor is moved at an angle to produce portrait photos without tilting the camera over? A 'rotating back' like some LF cameras have had for years, but internal. I'm just saying...

Anyway, I had to say it. I'm sorry. I could not disagree more with Erwin this time out.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
5 opinions

5 opinions

I'll need to read the original link more deeply when I have a bit more time.

A few quick thoughts (which are all I have at the moment as I am running on about three hours of sleep and a long day at the office)-



  1. If Spielberg and Lucas are the only "filmakers" left, I'll have to jab my eyes out with crochet needles. If these are the best examples to offer, F.I.D.

  2. Camera manufacturers are struggling with their interpretation of what consumers want. Just like car manufacturers. Eventually someone will get it right (something about 1,000 monkeys with typewriters comes to mind). Somewhere out there there is a budding Land (Polaroid) or Eastman. Once he (or she) gets their act together the next revolution in personal image capture will begin. Personally, I don't think it will be some half baked "convergence" device like the latest cell phones. Which, by the way, also seem to be hunting for market identities and cultural niches that will last more than 5 years.

  3. Currently film isn't dead, it's an archaic technology and frequently archaic technologies remain in use as art. Gunpowder and Fireworks.

  4. Matsushita already has a dslr (I think this piece predates the anouncement) it has an interchangeable Leica lens, Olympus parts (and influence) and Matsushita guts. Now if only the sensor were better.

  5. It may be black and white "silver halide" that becomes the sole survivor of all film. I believe the best film work has been done in B/W. Even though I love color. B/W, for me, beautifully reduces the captured image to light, shadow and detail. B/W film images differentiate very nicely from digital images.

My two cents.

Bob H
 
Last edited:
Fedzilla_Bob said:
  1. If Speilberg and Lucas are the only "filmakers" left, I'll have to jab my eyes out with crochet needles. If these are the best examples to offer, F.I.D.


  1. It doesn't matter. Film directors don't decide if movie film lives or dies - economics do, and already have. The bean counters hath spoken.

    [*]Camera manufacturers are struggling with their interpretation of what consumers want. Just like car manufacturers. Eventually someone will get it right (something about 1,000 monkeys with typewriters comes to mind). Somewhere out there there is a budding Land (Polaroid) or Eastman. Once he (or she) gets their act together the next revolution in personal image capture will begin. Personally, I don't think it will be some half baked "convergence" device like the latest cell phones. Which, by the way, also seem to be hunting for market identities and cultural niches that will last more than 5 years.


    Well said. Nokia announced recently that they have put the capper on MP3 players, just like they put the capper on cameras. They, personally, ended cameras. Really!

    http://www.leadingthecharge.com/stories/news-00165705.html

    "Nokia sees end for makers of MP3 players, video cams"


    [*]Currently film isn't dead, it's an archaic technology and frequently archaic technologies remain in use as art. Gunpowder and Fireworks.


    Your examples can be made in garages by enthusiasts. Film can't. We've been here before.



    [*]Matsushita already has a dslr (I think this piece predates the anouncement) it has an interchangeable Leica lens, Olympus parts (and influence) and Matsushita guts. Now if only the sensor were better.

    I quite agree, and am following 4/3 announcements with more enthusiasm than I had been previously. 4/3 is also a universal recipient of film-based manual-focua SLR lenses - even more so than Pentax. Yummy.

    [*]It may be black and white "silver halide" that becomes the sole survivor of all film. I believe the best film work has been done in B/W. Even though I love color. B/W, for me, beautifully reduces the captured image to light, shadow and detail. B/W film images differentiate very nicely from digital images.
My two cents.

Bob H

I hear ya. I hope B&W continues in some fashion. I believe it will, for a decade or so. After that? Don't know, but the view from here is depressing.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
I have a tough time understanding Erwin sober... after a couple of beers, forget it.

As for the film vs. digital thing... my Olympus C-7070WZ sits on my shelf between my Pentax 645 and my Bessa R. I've never seen any bruises, dents, or scratches on any of them when I get home, so I can only assume they're getting along fine.
 
vincentbenoit said:
I didn't know Spielberg was old school. Rohmer, Bresson, that's old school... Spielberg is just another despicable agent of the entertainment industry.

Vincent

You actually called someone, an individual, a human being, and a decent "mensch" I might add to be:

"...[A}nother despicable agent of the entertainment industry."

You have objectivized a human being for what reason?

Is your next suggestion that we should execute him because he is "despicable"!

This is as obscene as any vulgarity and this thread should be closed and expurgated!
 
I have zero interest in getting into a debate with you, particularly, about this.

The statement demeaned an individual into objectiviacation. "An agent of the entertainment industry" is a code phrase.

I am not Jewish - but I can smell an anti-Semite a mile and a half away.

Speilberg is a highly respected film director and producer!


He is not "an Agent of the entertainment industry"!

What the hell is an "Agent of the enterntainment industry"?
 
You didn't make the statement - the thread originator did.

You know that.
 
copake_ham said:
I have zero interest in getting into a debate with you, particularly, about this.

The statement demeaned an individual into objectiviacation. "An agent of the entertainment industry" is a code phrase.

I am not Jewish - but I can smell an anti-Semite a mile and a half away.

Speilberg is a highly respected film director and producer!


He is not "an Agent of the entertainment industry"!

What the hell is an "Agent of the enterntainment industry"?
Sorry if I offended you in any way by an improper choice of words. I didn't mean any of what you read in my post. What I meant was simply that I don't really appreciate the type of big budget movies that Spielberg (and many other directors and producers) makes. I happen to believe in cinema as an art form rather than as commercial entertainment, which is why I don't have much respect for Spielberg as a director and producer.

Sorry again. Next time I have insomnia I'll stick to reading a book or something rather than posting on RFF.

Vincent
 
Back
Top Bottom