Freezing Film

[_larky]

Hello.

So, I am freezing my film now. However, I have abut 10 rolls not in plastic tubs which have been frozen. I just pulled them out for use tomorrow, are they going to be buggered because of condensation?

Do you have to keep them in the plastic tubs, or this a myth? Has anyone had any bad luck freezing film without them in tubs?

Cheers.

 

[_larky]

OK, thanks for that. I'm going to shoot 3-4 rolls tomorrow of the potentially buggered film so we'll see. All my new film will stay in it's plastic tube from now on. 🙂

 

[Bob Michaels]

So, I am freezing my film now. .....................

Keep in mind that film does not freeze. While water is a liquid at +5C and a solid (ice) at -5, the same does not apply to film as it is already a solid. Film is just a little bit colder in the freezer, like the metal grate in there.

As everyone else has said, just keep it hermetically sealed from before you put it in the freezer (or refrigerator) until after is warms back up to ambient temperature and it will be fine.

 

[Freakscene]

Keep in mind that film does not freeze. While water is a liquid at +5C and a solid (ice) at -5, the same does not apply to film as it is already a solid. Film is just a little bit colder in the freezer, like the metal grate in there.

Bob, the gelatin does freeze. Its melting and freezing points are different. It is a solid above its freezing point due to molecular interactions. Pure gelatin freezes at -0.5C. When you freeze film in a domestic (approximately -18C) freezer, you are freezing the emulsion.

As everyone else has said, just keep it hermetically sealed from before you put it in the freezer (or refrigerator) until after is warms back up to ambient temperature and it will be fine.

Yes, absolutely. The risk is that as it warms atmospheric moisture will precipitate on the film. So leave it in its canister until it is at ambient all the way through to the core.

Marty

 

[Bob Michaels]

Bob, the gelatin does freeze. Its melting and freezing points are different. It is a solid above its freezing point due to molecular interactions. Pure gelatin freezes at -0.5C. When you freeze film in a domestic (approximately -18C) freezer, you are freezing the emulsion.

I think we had this discussion before, didn't we? I actually even read all the Kodak research documents you referenced but the thread was really past it's prime so I did not comment. I am not a chemist and it has been many many decades since I studied such. Too bad my dad, a PhD in Organic Chemistry, is still not around. Bottom line: I think I am right but certainly not with a high degree of confidence.

It really is a moot point, possibly just semantic, and I probably should never have brought it up again. My bad.

On line search about this came up with nothing. Interestingly, one notable item was that I never saw any information that suggested freezing film, only keeping in refrigerator.

 

[Rob-F]

+1 on keeping the film in the canisters. Let me just add that when we know the film will be needed in the near future (a few days? a week or so?), why not move it from the freezer to the refrigerator section, where the temperature is above freezing? That way the film is still adequately preserved for the short term, yet it can be accessed and warmed more quickly when needed on fairly short notice.

 

[Freakscene]

I think we had this discussion before, didn't we?

Yes, and I am happy to agree to disagree.

Working from general principles, for every ~10C you lower the storage temperature, you lose about half the static activity, which means you can store it for twice as long and retain the same sensitivity, in this case.

Marty

 

[Bob Michaels]

............. Working from general principles, for every ~10C you lower the storage temperature, you lose about half the static activity, which means you can store it for twice as long and retain the same sensitivity, in this case.

Marty: that is both interesting and dramatic. Would you think it goes the other way, where film stored in a warm not-air conditioned room, i.e. 10C warmer, would only last 1/2 as long than a cool room?

 

[Roger Hicks]

As usual, it's a resounding 'it depends'. The Arrhenius equation is both surprisingly complex, and surprisingly simple, but we aren't just looking at chemical reactions here. I'm told (though I've never verified it) that cosmic ray fogging is significant with ultra-fast emulsions. We are also (I suspect) looking at catalyzed and complex reactions where (for example) if an organic inhibitor breaks down, another reaction may proceed unexpectedly quickly. No doubt Marty knows far more than I about all of this.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Freakscene]

Marty: that is both interesting and dramatic. Would you think it goes the other way, where film stored in a warm not-air conditioned room, i.e. 10C warmer, would only last 1/2 as long than a cool room?

Yes, and some Kodak engineers told me that was about right. The exception is that the reaction curves of the preservatives in the film emulsion actually increase in gradient beyond standard conditions, so they preserve more than twice as well at 20C than at 30C. This is partly why the ISO standard specifies a standard temperature. Heat is bad for undeveloped film, but all damaging influences are over-rated. Most B&W moderate speed films will work just fine if used within their expiry dates as long as they are stored vaguely appropriately. With most films you have to store them really terribly to see any significant problems.

As usual, it's a resounding 'it depends'. The Arrhenius equation is both surprisingly complex, and surprisingly simple, but we aren't just looking at chemical reactions here. I'm told (though I've never verified it) that cosmic ray fogging is significant with ultra-fast emulsions. We are also (I suspect) looking at catalyzed and complex reactions where (for example) if an organic inhibitor breaks down, another reaction may proceed unexpectedly quickly. No doubt Marty knows far more than I about all of this.

Fogging due to radiation, breakdown and autodegradation of reactive components in the emulsion and reactions between them are all just different kinds of chemical reactions. The inhibitors and accelerants used to make film panchromatic and increase speed, and the preservatives that keep it stable are the most reactive components of modern films and start to react first. This is why films that rely on them heavily, like Fomapan 200, and superspeed films like Fuji Neopan 1600, Delta 3200 and TMZ store worst.

Marty

 

[Roger Hicks]

Fogging due to radiation, breakdown and autodegradation of reactive components in the emulsion and reactions between them are all just different kinds of chemical reactions. The inhibitors and accelerants used to make film panchromatic and increase speed, and the preservatives that keep it stable are the most reactive components of modern films and start to react first. This is why films that rely on them heavily, like Fomapan 200, and superspeed films like Fuji Neopan 1600, Delta 3200 and TMZ store worst.

Marty

Dear Marty,

Well, I said you'd know more than I, and I suppose you're right about cosmic ray degradation being just another chemical reaction -- but it feels more like physical... How's that for emotive science?

Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ronald M]

I double wrap film, canisters in sealed plastic box. Safe rather than sorry.

Put it in a plastic sandwich bags now. All you are doing is trying to prevent condensation during warm up.

 

[_larky]

Thanks for all the advice, and interesting information. I'm going to start reading up on the Kodak research.

The rolls I had concerns about developed fine, guess I was lucky. For the rest that is in there now I'm going to put them into air tight bags. 🙂

 

[barnwulf]

I was reading about film storage about 6 or 7 years ago that color film would deteriorate considerably faster than black and white film which could bring about color shift. It also said that it was the professional color film that was the most sensitive to storage temperatures. When I was selling my photographs and shooting a lot of MF chromes, I would freeze it until about 1 day before I would need to use it. I shoot mostly all black and white film now and I refrigerate my film but do not freeze it any longer. I don't know if any changes in film design require any different handling now. I have never had any film problems.

One thing that used to bother me was when I purchased film on the Internet, it would often be delivered by UPS. On hot 95 to 100 degree summer days those dark brown trucks get very hot inside. I have opened a box of film that had just arrived that almost hot to the touch. I always worried about this but I never had any ill effects that I could detect. I suspect film is a more durable than we often think. I keep my film refrigerated now but I am not as obsessive as I used to be. Jim

 

[Freakscene]

just another chemical reaction -- but it feels more like physical...

It's sometimes difficult to even convince science students that physical chemistry is still chemistry. Scientists are amusing - biologists look at big picture stuff, chemists smaller and often think chemistry explains biology, physicists smaller again and think physics explains chemistry and mathematicians smaller again and think mathematics explains everything. I look at each more as an answer to a specific question, largely based on a personal philosophy that we don't really know enough to explain very much.

Marty

 

[Chris101]

Math doesn't explain anything. It describes. Science requires something that math doesn't - the experiment.

 

[Freakscene]

Math doesn't explain anything. It describes. Science requires something that math doesn't - the experiment.

I agree with you, but lots of mathematicians argue you can do without much pesky data collection by modelling. I run into this all the time. I always say "when you heat water, it boils and aevapourates as steam; when you heat a mouse it runs away and hides and you have to go looking for it".

Marty

 

[_larky]

Depends how fast you heat it. 🙂 Sometimes they explode, or if you find a particularly strong mouse, it will expand and float like a balloon, with it's tail acting as the string.

😉

 

[Freakscene]

Depends how fast you heat it. 🙂 Sometimes they explode, or if you find a particularly strong mouse, it will expand and float like a balloon, with it's tail acting as the string. 😉

I'd like to present those possible outcomes to my animal ethics committee [joke]!

These days I mostly work on algae.

M

 

[tomalophicon]

I don't see a big deal if the film collects condensation. I move sheet film in and out of the freezer all the time and it's only in a paper bag and a cardboard box. I've never noticed an issue.