Fresh Water / White Vinegar sub for Stop Bath?

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roscoetuff

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Okay so in the last few weeks of developing a few rolls a night, I've cranked a few things through and am feeling more and more confident with things. Wanting to cut down on time, I've read folks seem to skip the chem stop bath and either just do 2 fresh water rinses or use white vinegar in place of a stop solution.

I'd be happy to cut out the set-up time and use water or simply add some white vinegar and not sweat this if I knew more... but unfortunately, I'm a chemical dummy... and a cookbook follower. What do you folks do?
 
From my experience, there's no difference between water, chemical stop bath or vinegar. I have been using just water for years, and you can check the results on my blog on the link below.
 
Vinegar should not be used as stop bath. While stop bath and vinegar are both Acetic Acid, vinegar is made to be used on food and often has impurities and other stuff added for flavoring.

Kodak Stop Bath is so freakin cheap, I can't imagine why anyone would balk at buying and using it. Its so much easier to do this stuff right than it is to keep trying other ways just to save a penny.
 
Same here. I've used only fresh water for stop bath for more than 10 years, both film and paper developments.

For film I rinsed 3 times with fresh water before pouring in the fixer. For paper, about 2 min of running water.
 
White vinegar is exactly the same as stop bath. Both are dilute acetic acid. I don't know the strength of the vinegar you're using but dilute it to 5% or so. Just don't get it too strong. tap water is fine too without the acid. Water is what I've used for decades. Matter of fact I use Formulary TF 4 or 5 fix and acid stop will ruin it.

Indicator stop concentrate is 28% acetic acid with potassium permanginate in it. It's orange in the presence of acid and when the acid is depleted and it's either neutral or alkaline it turns purple.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Vinegar should not be used as stop bath. While stop bath and vinegar are both Acetic Acid, vinegar is made to be used on food and often has impurities and other stuff added for flavoring.

Kodak Stop Bath is so freakin cheap, I can't imagine why anyone would balk at buying and using it. Its so much easier to do this stuff right than it is to keep trying other ways just to save a penny.
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For my case it's not about cost, but the availability of chemicals. I have to stock up on chemicals here as it could take a while before the next shipment arrive at our photo supply shop. One less bottle of chemical to stock up. And of course, one less chemical to worry about in the workflow.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Vinegar should not be used as stop bath. While stop bath and vinegar are both Acetic Acid, vinegar is made to be used on food and often has impurities and other stuff added for flavoring.

Kodak Stop Bath is so freakin cheap, I can't imagine why anyone would balk at buying and using it. Its so much easier to do this stuff right than it is to keep trying other ways just to save a penny.
Click to expand...

I have a degree in chemistry and "white" vinegar is synthesized from high sulfur coal and is used for cleaning purposes. It could be used with food but other vinegars like cider vinegar are used more often because of flavor.

White vinegar is fine.
 
Last time I was reading about stop bath as diluted white vinegar it was suggested for ECN-2 film.
If for some reason you can't get regular stop bath concentrate delivered, two water changes with do it.
 
Guys... this is great feedback. Thanks. I've got 2 bottles of TF-5 Fixer and I've read some folks skipping the Stop Bath with this, using a water bath instead, and in some cases, sticking with a Stop Bath. I'm not trying to skip a necessary step or even worry 'bout the cost... to me it's the time involved in setting up another solution... and cutting the time in the workflow. So if it's possible to bail on STOP, I'm for it. If it really does something necessary, then I'll stick with it.

For those who've been kind enough to help me here, there and everywhere, let me add my THANK YOU! I've been very happy with HC-110 as I finally found a dilution I like (1:49 for a 50-part dilution) and is easy as pie but also gives a long enough development time to increase the time involved in whatever margin of error there is (meaning I'm diggin' the images... even when they don't come out 'cause I blew something prior to developing my film).
 
For photography I only use stop bath. Here is some info. on white vinegar. It's the trace chemicals that I would question what they are. The article says some may be flavorings.

Stop bath is cheap and lasts a long time, either in stock or working solution form. I have Kodak stop bath with the stock at least 10 years old. And it's nice to have the indicator chemical which turns purple when exhausted.

"Low-odor stop baths use citric acid or sodium bisulfite in place of acetic acid."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar
 
AFAIK, the main advantage of using a stop bath is longer fixer life (not with all fixers though). So no surprise that people see no difference in their negatives if they skip it.
I've heard about (but not tried yet) using citric acid. Can anyone chip in in that? I'd prefer it over vinegar because if the smell.
 
I just got a bottle of Ilford rapid fixer and the label says it's citric acid. Guess it should work.

Disclaimer: I'm an absolute noob regarding development.
 
roscoetuff said:
Guys... this is great feedback. Thanks. I've got 2 bottles of TF-5 Fixer and I've read some folks skipping the Stop Bath with this, using a water bath instead, and in some cases, sticking with a Stop Bath. I'm not trying to skip a necessary step or even worry 'bout the cost... to me it's the time involved in setting up another solution... and cutting the time in the workflow. So if it's possible to bail on STOP, I'm for it. If it really does something necessary, then I'll stick with it.

For those who've been kind enough to help me here, there and everywhere, let me add my THANK YOU! I've been very happy with HC-110 as I finally found a dilution I like (1:49 for a 50-part dilution) and is easy as pie but also gives a long enough development time to increase the time involved in whatever margin of error there is (meaning I'm diggin' the images... even when they don't come out 'cause I blew something prior to developing my film).
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TF-5 is an alkaline fixer, so you shouldn't use an acid stop bath with it, just a water rinse between the developer and fixer. After you pour out the developer, fill the developing tank with water and then dump it out. Repeat the fill-n-dump with water then put in the fixer.
 
roscoetuff said:
... Wanting to cut down on time, I've read folks seem to skip the chem stop bath and either just do 2 fresh water rinses or use white vinegar in place of a stop solution.
...
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You don't save on time though. You still need to rinse the film in water (at least 1 change and a minute of agitation each.) Same time as using stop bath, just less chemicals.

Chris C. and xray both touched on the impurity aspect of using vinegar - and they are correct, additional ingredients that lend flavor, color, and aroma to vinegar will introduce a random factor into your process, which you probably don't want.

If you decide to use vinegar as stop bath, be sure to use distilled white vinegar (a gallon is about a buck fifty at walmart), and dilute it 1+1 (up to 1+3) with water before using it.

Using stop is optional for film, but should be done when printing. The image will continue to darken until it hits an acidic solution. Using an acidic stop bath will allow you to time the development precisely.
 
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x-ray said:
Indicator stop concentrate is 28% acetic acid with potassium permanginate in it. It's orange in the presence of acid and when the acid is depleted and it's either neutral or alkaline it turns purple.
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Are you sure ?? Check your facts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanganate

I have been using just water for years
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Certainly this works, based on the statements of a number of experienced people. But the so-called water-bath method (Saint Ansel, The Negative, 5th edition, Morgan & Morgan, Illustrations 30, 31, 32), for compensating development, seems to imply that the developer in the emulsion continues to act in the waterbath? What to make of that?
 
BernardL said:
Are you sure ?? Check your facts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanganate

Certainly this works, based on the statements of a number of experienced people. But the so-called water-bath method (Saint Ansel, The Negative, 5th edition, Morgan & Morgan, Illustrations 30, 31, 32), for compensating development, seems to imply that the developer in the emulsion continues to act in the waterbath? What to make of that?
Click to expand...

You compensate for this effect by cutting down the development time by 10 seconds or so. Besides, this effect is so negligible that you can counter balance it during wet printing or scanning.

Also, incorrect use of the acid stop bath can harm your negatives by creating spots on the emulsion (lots of them).
 
Chris101: The time I'm cutting down is set-up, mixing chemicals, measuring, etc. - all that stuff that given it's due, takes more time than I wish it did. One less mix would be a relief.

ChrisCrawford: Thanks! I thought I'd read that, but the Photographer's Formulary tech sheet is more ambiguous than I had hoped for, or in my mind, than it should be. Even talked to "Bud" the other day, and for a guy who I'm sure has a wealth of knowledge and experience, he's likely been so hammered by folks over the years, he's more reticent to offer advice than I'd hoped. "Everyone has their own thing." And of course as a geezer myself, I "get that" completely.
 
A lot depends on how dialed in you are in your development times. I used stop bath and I used water and they both worked fine. The stop bath stopped the development process immediately. The water bath slowed it down and it stopped when the fixer hit the film.
There are two advantages to a chemical stop. Immediate cessation of development and longer life to your fixer. Though the second advantage is arguable if you rinse well.
 
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