From a TLR to another 120 camera... SLR vs Folders?

[Spanik]

Well, a folder will never be as easy to manipulate and take photo's with as any other kind of "fixed" camera. Be it SLR, TLR or RF. And to get one that is of reasonable price and not out of bend could turn into an epic quest. Even those with coupled rangefinders often have separate rangefinders and viewfinders.

If you don't want to sell out for an Hasselblad, then the Bronica might be an idea. And there are a lot of other options as well. But for the larger formats (6x7, 6x8 and 6x9) you're going to find more RF's than SLR's if you want them to be "portable". And the experience and quality of something like a Fuji will blow the socks of any folder.

Any other of those larger formats will also "slow you down". Even Hasselblads are no digital spray guns.

So I'd stick with the Yashica until you actually know what you want.

 

[donkee]

I have a Mamiya C220 and a Bronica SQ-a. I like both of them and use them equally.

Also nestled in my collection are some Agfe Isolettes and Kodak folders. They are fun to use and actually do a good job. I use an accessory range finder to set focus. Works very well for people photos.

 

[Nokton48]

I have Hasselblads and I understand your wishes. I settled on the Plaubel Makiflex (an SLR from the early 1960's). Not easy to find, but you might be able to find one for $250 if you are lucky. I have three of them (see my avatar or flikr pages) and have been building my system up for 25 years. It's a great camera (6x6, 6x9 or 9x9cm). 9x9cm Images on a 4x5" or 9x12cm sheet is a treat. Works with lenses from 120mm to 360mm, and is bulky, but not excessively heavy to carry around.

 

[Photo_Smith]

I'd stick with the TLR unless you can't get on with it. Folders can be nice and sizes can be smaller or similar than a 35mm:

The Ensign on the left was bought for beer money, and has a very crisp Ross (tessar type) lens-as mentioned though close focus is poor.
If you want a low tech RF for your folder try "the human Rangefinder' it's free and the size of a credit card.
The Human RF
Folders, TLR's Rf's and SLR's all have their plus and minus points, only you can know what you're willing to put up with operation wise–the perfect camera has yet to be made.

 

[Vics]

"
Right now I have a Yashica Mat TLR. It is in perfect shape, the light meter works (!!!) and it's quite beautiful. That being said, whilst I love the 120 format and how I am slowed down by the TLR, I think there's something I don't like about this type of camera. I cannot quite put my finger on it to be sincere..."

Maybe you don't like shooting the square format. You might try visualizing rectangular images within your square frame (6x4.5), or, and maybe cooler, try shooting some panoramas on three frames. There's a very cool Rollei accessory for that. Goes between the tripod and camera. Should work perfectly for your Yashica.

 

[Ezzie]

It´s really a question of versatility vs portability. I have had 120 TLR´s, folders and SLRs (both kinds). And they all have their uses.

The folder is super for putting in your jacket when you are out, not really looking to take pictures, but you don't want to risk anything passing you by. Newer folders however are big. Just look at the newer Bessas or Fujis. Depending on which folder, you will have pretty awful finders compared to other MF stuff, and you have parallax to contend with. And of course the focusing, rangefinder models are more expensive, and come both in the uncoupled (have to read the value off the RF and enter it on your lens) or coupled variety. Very wide range of lenses, but all more or less the same focal length, some not too good and many not that fast.

TLR´s are mostly all 6x6 or 4x4 (127), with some offering 135 inserts. As you know already, they are quite big and boxy. But compared to MF SLR's still quite compact. I find that MF TLR and SLR finders are more or less equivalent. The advantage of the TLR being no mirror blackout. The main issue is parallax, and not possible to get a depth of field preview (as is the case for folders).

SLR's are the biggest of the bunch. Heavy beasts all of them. Even the 6x4.5 versions. You have two dialects. The super 135 type (Pentacon SIX, Exakta 66, Pentax 6x7/67, Kiev 60, Norita/Kilfitts etc) and the box type (Hassy, Bronica, Mamiya, Kowa, ++) The former are simpler. No exchangeable backs. The latter are the complete system camera. Complex, and infinitely adaptable. I like both, the former more of a walkabout camera, the latter more of a tripod queen. Mirror slap and slow handheld work do not exactly go hand in hand, another pro for the TLR (or folder), but not all SLRs are that bad.

But if I were to chose one it would be the SLR. Folders are cute and pocketable. But no matter how you try, they will all have the same focal length (75 or 80mm for 6x6). There is no way around it. With an SLR you can chose one camera and many lenses. One TLR system offers the same versatility more or less, the Mamiya C-system (C2/C3 to C220/330). But it is even more a beast of a camera than most SLRs (Mamiya RZ/RB and Fuji GX not included). There are wide angle and tele adapters for other TLR's, but they don't exactly improve the optical performance, nor are they that cheap.

Or you could do as I have, get a Polaroid 110 folder and adapt it to take different backs, though I have not modified mine to take different lenses, I know of several that have. My single favourite camera.

 

[ZeissFan]

Eirik, that's very well put.

Photography is always about compromise and finding the best compromise for your particular style and needs.

If you want to try a folder, try something inexpensive but good quality. And see if that works for how you shoot.

 

[shortstop]

I use a rollei tlr 3,5f: more or less like your yashica: it's the camera with great negatives, light and easy to use. I'll never sell this marvellous camera
Then I have two 6x6 folding (super isolette and perkeo II): the first easy to use also in portrait, the latter very very cool, but much slower and not for shooting movibg subject. Agfa super isolette has a viewfinder usable also with glasses (clear and comfortable) and a very sharp VF. Not so cool in my opinion as perkeo, but modern, functional camera. Shooting indoor is easier than TLRs.
Don't like plasic electronic shutter Bessa III. Too big. Better a 6x9 classic folding. Bigger negative surface than bessa III, but strangely lighter and smaller. But this is only my opinion.
Too many informations?
In a nutsheel: consider Super Isolette. The lens is excellent too. But don't sell your yashica.

 

[mfogiel]

I'd wait and save up for a "serious" 6x45 or 6x6 or 6x7 rangefinder like Bronica Rf or Mamiya 6 or 7 ot possibly Plaubel 67. There are some Fuji 6x45 folders that are cheaper, but are autofocus only.

 

[GaryLH]

The toughest aspect of this is the 250 price point whether folder or slr style.

In slr style cameras, I think u will need to look for 645 or 6x6 camera w/ their respective normal lens.. They are going to be heavier then your Yashica and w/o a prism or light meter.

The folders are going to be easier to find something under 250. A folder w/ a good lense and rf in that price range these days would be
- Zeiss super ikonta iii or iv (most likely a three element design for 250)
- Russian folder like a Moskva 6x9 or Isakra 645
- Agfa/Anseco Speedex uncoupled rf
- Voitlander Bessa rf (maybe)
- older Zeiss super ikonta a (645) or c (6x9) is a maybe..
Scale focus folders
- Voitglander perkeo (any model) or Bessa I
- Zeiss 6x6 and 6x9
- plus a lot of others all in this price range

My all time favorites are perkeo and Bessa II.. The Bessa II however is out of your price range. Normally these cameras came w/ either 3 or 4 element lens designs and front element focusing. There are cameras that use focusing via the rail on the bed like the Bessa II or rear film plane focusing are examples of other focusing design that are suppose to give better focusing.. In practice, I am not sure one can really tell that much of a difference.

There are some 5 or 6 element designs such as the Bessa II that have 5 (Heliar) and 6 (Lanthar) element designs. The Lanthar is ridiculously expensive due to collectors. The Heliar is not to bad.

In terms of the Agfa cameras be careful in terms of the lube. The original lens lube was known to age badly causing frozen lens focusing issues. It is easy to fix the problem, but the price of the camera should account for this.

Someone above mention Fuji 645 folder, there two things to be concerned w/ there.
- original bellows material was known to have issues w/ early light leak type failure, once replaced no problem
- this is the only camera I have ever heard that needs to have the shutter cocked before folding the camera for storage.

The Bessa are known for weakness in terms of front standard compared to a Zeiss for example so if u get one check for plumb.

Good luck
Gary

Gary

 

[GaryLH]

Forgot to mention.. If u want the most versatility and u don't mind weight or ground glass focusing get the baby version of a 4x5 camera which is designed for 2x3 (6x9 roll film backs or 2x3 sheet film). Some have rf but may only have cam for one lens and u may need to use ground glass for others.

Here is example of a baby speed graflex that is less then 200 w/ a lens.
http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF030090192530?r=FE

Gary

 

[hamradio]

Another option would be a Mamiya Press camera. A Super 23 kit can be had within that budget. Mamiya RB67 kits are dirt cheap, too.

 

[rwtwpg]

Tough to stay under the $250 limit and get something you could consider as an upgrade. For a few more dollars, Fuji makes a number of MF rangefinders. The GS645S is a metered manual focus rangefinder with a very sharp lens, it is light weight, and size is easy to live with too - about as tall as a 35mm dslr but not as wide. Should be able to get one for $300-$350.
Cheers
Richard

 

[Redseele]

It´s really a question of versatility vs portability. I have had 120 TLR´s, folders and SLRs (both kinds). And they all have their uses.

The folder is super for putting in your jacket when you are out, not really looking to take pictures, but you don't want to risk anything passing you by. Newer folders however are big. Just look at the newer Bessas or Fujis. Depending on which folder, you will have pretty awful finders compared to other MF stuff, and you have parallax to contend with. And of course the focusing, rangefinder models are more expensive, and come both in the uncoupled (have to read the value off the RF and enter it on your lens) or coupled variety. Very wide range of lenses, but all more or less the same focal length, some not too good and many not that fast.

TLR´s are mostly all 6x6 or 4x4 (127), with some offering 135 inserts. As you know already, they are quite big and boxy. But compared to MF SLR's still quite compact. I find that MF TLR and SLR finders are more or less equivalent. The advantage of the TLR being no mirror blackout. The main issue is parallax, and not possible to get a depth of field preview (as is the case for folders).

SLR's are the biggest of the bunch. Heavy beasts all of them. Even the 6x4.5 versions. You have two dialects. The super 135 type (Pentacon SIX, Exakta 66, Pentax 6x7/67, Kiev 60, Norita/Kilfitts etc) and the box type (Hassy, Bronica, Mamiya, Kowa, ++) The former are simpler. No exchangeable backs. The latter are the complete system camera. Complex, and infinitely adaptable. I like both, the former more of a walkabout camera, the latter more of a tripod queen. Mirror slap and slow handheld work do not exactly go hand in hand, another pro for the TLR (or folder), but not all SLRs are that bad.

But if I were to chose one it would be the SLR. Folders are cute and pocketable. But no matter how you try, they will all have the same focal length (75 or 80mm for 6x6). There is no way around it. With an SLR you can chose one camera and many lenses. One TLR system offers the same versatility more or less, the Mamiya C-system (C2/C3 to C220/330). But it is even more a beast of a camera than most SLRs (Mamiya RZ/RB and Fuji GX not included). There are wide angle and tele adapters for other TLR's, but they don't exactly improve the optical performance, nor are they that cheap.

Or you could do as I have, get a Polaroid 110 folder and adapt it to take different backs, though I have not modified mine to take different lenses, I know of several that have. My single favourite camera.

This is a fantastically helpful post. Thank you very much, and thank you everyone for all your help and time in helping me decide.

After a lot of research, I've decided that I will keep my TLR format. I realized that I like the 80mm range (50mm equivalence in 35mm format, which is what I normally shoot on my M3). Maybe with all my enthusiasm for my Leica system (which I only really acquired last year) I have been kept away from my Yashica Mat and I just haven't shot with it enough. Today I took it out and throughly enjoyed it. I cannot imagine taking something bigger and heavier (like an SLR) outside (since I am not a studio photographer) and I like how it's not so "point-and-shoot-y" as the folders.

If anything, I think maybe it's the Yashica Mat model I have (EM) that doesn't quite feel right. There's something about it that feels flimsy or non polished, or maybe it feels like there are too many mechanical components in it. Of course, this also probably has to do with how my perception of cameras changed when I got my Leica M3. I have been doing some research about whether jumping into the Rolleicord line would be a step up, but apparently I read image-wise I would probably get about the same results but with the downgrade of a worse finder and the fact that I would probably have to spend more cash to CLA it (which I have already done with my Yashica Mat EM).

Right now going all the way up into the modern Rolleiflex territory seems to be the only significant improvement, but alas it would be impossible for me (alas, they are un the $1000 territory).

So I guess that for now I should just keep shooting with my Yashica Mat. Once again, thank you so much everyone for all the help. I hope all your responses will be useful for people having the same questions in the future.

 

[shortstop]

This is a fantastically helpful post. Thank you very much, and thank you everyone for all your help and time in helping me decide. After a lot of research, I've decided that I will keep my TLR format. I realized that I like the 80mm range (50mm equivalence in 35mm format, which is what I normally shoot on my M3). Maybe with all my enthusiasm for my Leica system (which I only really acquired last year) I have been kept away from my Yashica Mat and I just haven't shot with it enough. Today I took it out and throughly enjoyed it. I cannot imagine taking something bigger and heavier (like an SLR) outside (since I am not a studio photographer) and I like how it's not so "point-and-shoot-y" as the folders. If anything, I think maybe it's the Yashica Mat model I have (EM) that doesn't quite feel right. There's something about it that feels flimsy or non polished, or maybe it feels like there are too many mechanical components in it. Of course, this also probably has to do with how my perception of cameras changed when I got my Leica M3. I have been doing some research about whether jumping into the Rolleicord line would be a step up, but apparently I read image-wise I would probably get about the same results but with the downgrade of a worse finder and the fact that I would probably have to spend more cash to CLA it (which I have already done with my Yashica Mat EM). Right now going all the way up into the modern Rolleiflex territory seems to be the only significant improvement, but alas it would be impossible for me (alas, they are un the $1000 territory). So I guess that for now I should just keep shooting with my Yashica Mat. Once again, thank you so much everyone for all the help. I hope all your responses will be useful for people having the same questions in the future.

I think you have taken the right decision. For a photographer what really matters is the negative. I don't think yashinon/yashica negatives are very different from planar/rolley negatives. So, keeping yashica is very wise. Surely between the two there is a very different feeling. May be in the future...
Folders: the majority of MF folders are slow or become quick only with hyperfocal point and shoot method except the RF coupled. And the best coupled RF folder is Agfa Super Isolette. I had forgotten to alert you two additional folding modern that I like very much: mamiya 6 (don't like 7, too big and negative only 14 mm larger, better 6x9; spot meter, not folding), unfortunately electronic shutter, but top interchangeable lenses and plaubel makina 67 (totally mechanical modern folding; 6x7, but foldable, excellent nikkor 2,8 lens). But they require other budget. Keep in mind for the future.
Agree with you about MF SLRs. have been designed for study not for street photography. Forget them.
it was a pleasant chat.
Best

 

[oftheherd]

Well, a folder will never be as easy to manipulate and take photo's with as any other kind of "fixed" camera. Be it SLR, TLR or RF. And to get one that is of reasonable price and not out of bend could turn into an epic quest. Even those with coupled rangefinders often have separate rangefinders and viewfinders.

If you don't want to sell out for an Hasselblad, then the Bronica might be an idea. And there are a lot of other options as well. But for the larger formats (6x7, 6x8 and 6x9) you're going to find more RF's than SLR's if you want them to be "portable". And the experience and quality of something like a Fuji will blow the socks of any folder.

Any other of those larger formats will also "slow you down". Even Hasselblads are no digital spray guns.

So I'd stick with the Yashica until you actually know what you want.

Can't quite understand your comment above on folders not being as easy to 'manipulate' as a 'fixed' camera. Granted you have to open them (usually just push a button) and you want one with a sturdy lens standard. But for that tradeoff you get a much more pocketable camera, even in MF. Everything else is the same in operation as would be a 'fixed' camera.

I don't recall and folding SLR, although there are some that have bellows. There are a couple of folding TLR I am aware of, as well as bellows. Folding zone focus and RF are out there in other than SLR (if they exist), and TLR.

I have several folding MF in 6x6 or combination 6x6 and 645. I have Fuji, Welta, and Mamiya, with my favorites being the Welta and the Mamiya Six. I also have a Zeiss 6x9 zone focus that takes surprisingly good photos. I enjoy using them all, and keep at least one in my 35mm SLR kits. I also have Welta 35mm folding RF and zone focus. None of them present any handling problems for me over 'fixed' cameras.

 

[shortstop]

Can't quite understand your comment above on folders not being as easy to 'manipulate' as a 'fixed' camera. Granted you have to open them (usually just push a button) and you want one with a sturdy lens standard. But for that tradeoff you get a much more pocketable camera, even in MF. Everything else is the same in operation as would be a 'fixed' camera. I don't recall and folding SLR, although there are some that have bellows. There are a couple of folding TLR I am aware of, as well as bellows. Folding zone focus and RF are out there in other than SLR (if they exist), and TLR. I have several folding MF in 6x6 or combination 6x6 and 645. I have Fuji, Welta, and Mamiya, with my favorites being the Welta and the Mamiya Six. I also have a Zeiss 6x9 zone focus that takes surprisingly good photos. I enjoy using them all, and keep at least one in my 35mm SLR kits. I also have Welta 35mm folding RF and zone focus. None of them present any handling problems for me over 'fixed' cameras.

I agree with your enthusiasm. I have a Perkeo II with external Voigtländer RF and Contur viewfinder (cool), a Super Isolette (fast to use) and a Welta weltur 6x9 (wonderful). The last two have a good viewfinder easy to use also with glasses a very contrasted RF and all are pocketable MF (6x9 a bit more than MF...😃).

 

[ZeissFan]

As always, the best thing to do is to use a camera. I never believe that you should buy based on someone else's experience.

And ignore most advice in which the reviewer spends time comparing it to another camera. That's pretty much useless, in my opinion.

The truth is that some people love folders. Some like TLRs. Some like waist-level finders or eye-level finders. There are a lot of excellent cameras out there, but you need to find the one that feels "right" to you.

And when you do make a choice, don't begin comparing it to your favorite camera because invariably the new camera comes up short. Let a camera succeed or fail on its own merits and not because it doesn't feel like your Canon/Nikon/Leica/Contax/Fuji/whatever.

 

[nosmok]

I have a Yashica TLR and while it takes great pics I don't "like" it either-- it's the square format that pooches it for me. I like rectangles, and I especially like 6x9. There's not a lot in your price range for 6x9 folders. You could get lucky with a Welta Weltur or Skopar equipped Bessa II. However, a Helomar lensed Bessa RF is findable for under 250usd, as is a Tessar lensed Ensign Auto Range (two words; do not confuse with the later Autorange 820). The latter feature uncoated lenses, but so does the Weltur.

In 6x4.5, the coupled rf, unit focussing Welturs are real bargains-- my last one was 45 bucks, in 2013. That would be my choice for a first rectangular frame folder.

--nosmok

 

[oftheherd]

Another option would be a Mamiya Press camera. A Super 23 kit can be had within that budget. Mamiya RB67 kits are dirt cheap, too.

Interesting that I seem to have missed this post. I never miss a chance to say how good the Mamiya Press 23, and I am sure, the Universal are (very slight difference between them).

They are system cameras, with interchangeable lenses, backs, cut film holders, extension tubes, etc. Their only down side is size and weight. If you can handle that, they are fantastic. They had a bit of a cult following, which I think may be coming down a bit, but they are still more in price than they were a few years ago.

The size and weight, especially the weight during a bad back problem, was part of what got me to looking for good MF folders. I wasn't afraid of folders having used my father's old Welta Welti for many years with great results.