From Leica to Zeiss Ikon

R

raphaelaaron

Well-known
Local time
9:26 AM
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
247
Are there any previous Leica users who made the switch over to Zeiss Ikon rangefinders? If so, what were your reasons.

If any of you have both Leica and Zeiss rangefinders, what do you like about each of them?


I'm mainly talking about the bodies.
 
I went the other way, Zeiss Ikon -> M6 -> M7 -> M6.

In short:
The Zeiss is a well-made, really good camera. It is slightly lighter than the Ms, has a wider RF base (which makes it faster to focus) but a sometimes it is hard to see the exposure time in the finder. The metering is different from the Ms, which one you prefer is a matter of taste and getting trained to either. The ZI's RF calibration gets knocked out easier than the Ms. This may or may not be an issue for you. Some have a ZI and never have them knocked out of calibration. I did. Faster than I liked. The ZI is louder , but it is asound that most people nowadays may not think is a camera shutter....quite metallic; not that the Ms are particularly quite, though, and the difference will hardly matter.

I prefer the M6 because it is tougher and easier/cheaper to fix (here in Austria/Germany, that is - I spend too much money already getting bodies fixed by the manufacturers; that is why I ditched the perfect M7), and mine has the MP finder, which is not much inferior to the ZIs. I would have liked to like to ZI more, because it is overall the better, more modern camera.

What are your reasons for considering a switch, anyways?
 
Own both the ZI and M7, as well as the MP.

If I could only choose one, I will keep the M7, but only cuz it's a Leica.

But ZI wins in weight, finder, shutter speed, and price.
 
I have zi and mp. Zi always feels like home, but I accept it also feels slightly more fragile. Both are great. Not sure which would go first, but that's not a logical decision in any way.

Problem of excess really, not a real problem!

Mike
 
Had an M7, bought one of the original limited edition Zeiss Ikon bodies (no different from their regular cameras, just hype), sold the M7 shortly after buying the ZI. Found the shooting experience so much improved with the ZI, primarily because of the viewfinder/rangefinder, preferred the light weight, comfortable to hold (and I think beautiful) in a black Luigi half-case (chrome body, by the way, I think all the LE cameras were chrome), and easy to shoot. I find the metering nearly always dead on and shoot in aperture priority most of the time; the AE lock button is well placed unlike the M. I have never needed any service on the camera since it first arrived, rangefinder alignment remains spot on and focusing has always been accurate, even with a 135/3.4 or a wide open 50/1.5 ZM or 50/1.4 lux. Due to a treatable but annoying newly diagnosed eye problem I have to go back to wearing contact lenses after a ten year hiatus, the other big upside (besides alleviating my new malady) will be the ability to see all the frame lines in the ZI (and the 40mm FL in my R3a), inability to fully see the widest FLs was, in my experience, the only downside of the ZI for an eyeglass wearer.
Good luck,
Larry
 
I have an M2 and an ikon.

The ikon viewfinder is nothing short of amazing! Makes focusing in lower light so much easier. Oh and AE is nice too.

The M2 is a no-nonsense camera that can be a little dim but perfectly fine for daytime usage.

Personally, if you were in the market for a new body, I'd snap up an ikon fast :)
 
ZI is overall the best rangefinder ever made, but here are the cons:
- it is a bit more fragile overall, than a Leica ( rf alignment can go off more easily)
- some dislike the shutter speed display, because difficult to see in bright light
- some dislike the lack of any mechanical shutter speeds - when the battery dies, the music stops
- some argue, the focusing patch is not as contrasty as in an M7 or MP
- there is a slight shutter lag respect to a Leica
- the shutter is slightly louder than in a Leica
- the AE lock works on a time lapse basis, some prefer the pressure one in an M7
- the rewind crank is at the bottom and twists the "wrong" way - not a big deal for me
- there is no 75mm and 135mm frame- some consider this a plus
- there is no motor winder option
- it is out of production now, so watch out for ease of servicing
- it is great to handle, but has no Leica fondling factor

The pros:

- the VF is big and bright like a dream, it is like three Leica viewfinders put in one
- the camera is lighter than a Leica
- the top speed is 1/2000th
- there is a metal shutter - no risk of making pinholes
- the exposure system has a sky pattern correction for vertical shots if you grip correctly
- the rangefinder base is extremely long and precise - it is almost as good as the Leica .85x, while the VF coverage is much wider - ideal for focusing fast lenses down to 28mm
- the film loading is simple, straightforward, fast and less prone to errors than with a Leica
- you can peep to see what film is loaded, if any
- there are single dedicated frames for 35mm and 50 mm
- it costs 1/3rd of an M7

Personally I use my ZI glued to the Nokton 35/1.2 for a dream low light combination.



20090123 by mfogiel, on Flickr
 
thank you guys for the responses. read every single one and found each helpful!

i guess the reason i was mainly geared toward thinking of a ZI investment was because their value can go up since they are now discontinued, i believe.

also, i always found it a joy to shoot on my voigtlander, and know that ZI is an amped up quality version of that. the large VF is definitely a reason too.

didn't know about the shutter lag, also didn't know that RF alignment can get knocked off. these are some issues i will weigh should i decide on purchasing one.

thanks again, guys.
 
raphaelaaron said:
thank you guys for the responses. read every single one and found each helpful!

i guess the reason i was mainly geared toward thinking of a ZI investment was because their value can go up since they are now discontinued, i believe.

also, i always found it a joy to shoot on my voigtlander, and know that ZI is an amped up quality version of that. the large VF is definitely a reason too.

didn't know about the shutter lag, also didn't know that RF alignment can get knocked off. these are some issues i will weigh should i decide on purchasing one.

thanks again, guys.
Click to expand...

The RF alignment is a real issue, mine is slightly off. Doesn't bother me much when shooting, but makes the M7 and MP seem that much more reliable.
 
mfogiel said:
- there is no 75mm and 135mm frame- some consider this a plus
Click to expand...

The cross formed by the inside of the 50 frames is very very close to 75. Easy to use, too.

I'm curious about the shutter lag. Are there any documented figures to support this?

It's only anecdotal, but: I had my ZI out in the rough and tumble backcountry and highland indigenous villages for some tens of thousands of images, and although it has some nicks and scratches on the body, the RF has never come out of alignment.
 
I've never noticed any shutter lag comparing my ZI (actually currently two ZI's) to MP. The M9/MM 'feels' slower, but isn't once you've sussed the shutter action out - the delay is after the shutter release.

I've only had one ZI rf go out of alignment in quite a few years of use - that happened when I dropped it from over a meter height onto a hard floor. Result, slight mark on top plate (silver version) and rf knocked out of alignment. I sent it ti Germany and it was returned perfectly aligned two weeks later at a very reasonable cost.

One thought is that if either goes wrong, Zeiss will probably charge you less to fix it than Leica. Obviously, we don't know how long Zeiss will want to keep servicing them, but there has been a statement that service will continue to be available.

All are good. I like the way the ZI falls to hand and eye

Mike
 
How is film loading in the ZI? With my shaky hands, I must choose among my cams based on whether I can load them or not. I can't load the M3 anymore, so I'm wondering...
 
The ZI loads very easily.

I moved from the M7 to the ZI because I like it more. Others feel differently and that works as well.

I hear people talk about rangefinder misalignment with the ZI but I have been using mine very steadily for quite awhile and have had no problem with my rangefinder. It is accurate enough to properly focus my Nokton 50/1.1 very accurately wide open. Besides, most rangefinder mechanisms can be knocked out of alignment if you knock them around enough. The only rangefinder I own where that doesn't seem to be an issue is my Contax II.
 
I had M7s on two occasions. Then went to the ikon. I preferred using the ikon. The Vf is better - better even than the no-flare Leica Vf which still managed to flare....

Cost is less. Preciousness is less. Weight is less but I didn't find that to be a benefit. Not a detraction either. I probably preferred the m7 heft but wouldn't let it affect me either way.

The ikon goes to 1/2000, right? Another plus. Loading the ikon is much better.....

The Leica has what going for it? Heritage and cache? After owning a bunch of Leica gear - Ms and Rs and compacts, I certainly do not trust the Leica 'build quality.' And re customer service, the ikon experience was fantastic. The Leica experience was screamingly horrific.
 
I went from ZI to Leica M6, much preferred the ZI, but decided to try an M3 instead. The M3 I loved even more than the ZI.

I don't know about fragility/servicing etc. And I'm far from convinced ZI cameras will go up in value now that they are discontinued (Hexar RF hasn't, nor has Yasuhara despite being made in tiny numbers).

I will say this, for slide film, and ease of use, a ZI is a delight. For meterless, batteryless shooting, the M3, for me changed how I thought about cameras. I think since I had the M3 I haven't bought a camera which needed batteries.
 
raphaelaaron said:
thank you guys for the responses. read every single one and found each helpful!

i guess the reason i was mainly geared toward thinking of a ZI investment was because their value can go up since they are now discontinued, i believe.

also, i always found it a joy to shoot on my voigtlander, and know that ZI is an amped up quality version of that. the large VF is definitely a reason too.

didn't know about the shutter lag, also didn't know that RF alignment can get knocked off. these are some issues i will weigh should i decide on purchasing one.

thanks again, guys.
Click to expand...

If you have Bessas already you probably won't get much more by moving to the Ikon. I had an R2a and I found it a peer to the ZI, with the main practical difference being the 28 frame line on the ZI (which I did not need and was hard to see anyway) and the longer RF base length. Construction and handling, in my opinion, were very similar. I'm not sure why so many consider the ZM a stop up in quality.

The real step up in quality is a Leica M. Those cameas are something else and will likely spoil you for life.

I had a ZI and an M4 for a 5 month head to head comparison, the winner would get to stay and the loser would be sold. I already had the M4 and the ZI was supposed to give me some of what I had lost when the R2a was stolen:

- In-camera meter
- lightweight body
- faster synch speed

On paper, it looked like a slam dunk for the ZI, but in practice the M4 won out. I strongly encourage you to spend a few days, possibly weeks with the ZI and see if it lives up to your expectations, and if you can be happy with it. For instance:

> I was looking forward to the much touted VF, but in practice it was not better than the Bessa, and had the most annoying flaw: the RF patch vanishes at the most crucial moments f your eye is not perfectly centered. That as the most aggravating flaw for me, and I was more than happy to "downgrade" to the M4's smaller VF and it's rock-solid RF patch

> the AE lock button was too hard to reach for my small hands, making using AE a chore --exactly the opposite of what it should be. I would have much preferred a 1/2 shutter press lock implementation (M7) or a more conveniently placed AE switch (Contax G)

The lightweight was welcome, and the left-hand meter scale was pleasantly unobtrusive, almost giving me a pleasant combo of a meterless experience with the option of scanning the VF to the left to get a reading.

Still it was not enough; by then I was so used to meterless bodies, that the ZI's built-in meter, unobtrusive as it was, offered little advantage for my use. The AE, could have been a nice tool, but given the center weighted reading, it requires intelligent user intervention, which is hampered byt the AE lock and the "crunchy" exposure compensation wheel.

If you search by my user name, you'll see the detailed post mortem of my choice between these two fine cameras. I think either would have helped me capture the same pictures, with possibly a few more from the ZI thanks to the possibility of daylight flash, but since I photograph for pleasure, I did not need to put up with the annoyances that the ZI presented for me.
 
froyd said:
If you have Bessas already you probably won't get much more by moving to the Ikon. I had an R2a and I found it a peer to the ZI, with the main practical difference being the 28 frame line on the ZI (which I did not need and was hard to see anyway) and the longer RF base length. Construction and handling, in my opinion, were very similar. I'm not sure why so many consider the ZM a stop up in quality.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I've had a ZI and a R4A, I'd say the ZI was of notably nicer build. It's hard pin down any one thing which is better, I just think as a whole, it's noticeably nicer.

That's not say a Bessa is poorly built, not at all, just that the ZI feels nicer to me.
 
thegman said:
Hmm, I've had a ZI and a R4A, I'd say the ZI was of notably nicer build. It's hard pin down any one thing which is better, I just think as a whole, it's noticeably nicer.

That's not say a Bessa is poorly built, not at all, just that the ZI feels nicer to me.
Click to expand...


I would agree. I've had an R2a and R4a (and m) and prefer the ZI.

Still, they do all take pictures
 
I shoot with both the ZI and a Bessa R3a and R2s. I believe the quality, feel, and shooting experience of the Zeiss is a definite step up from either, though not to denigrate the Bessas, IMHO a camera that is superior to them must of necessity be a very fine piece of gear. The RF/VF on the ZI is quite a bit better, but most importantly for my use the longer rangefinder baseline of the ZI is a very important advantage over most any other rangefinder body. It is very helpful producing keepers with longer lenses and shooting wide open with faster glass, the Bessas cannot match that, nor did my M7 which could not reliably focus the 75 Summilux.

A bit off topic, but if you want to get closer to the Leica fondling fetish, although they are very expensive, the Luigi half case makes the camera a delight to hold and fondle, and even shoot, as well as providing protection. I believe there is a very similar Chinese version of the case that can be purchased at a much more reasonable price, but they weren't around (or at least on my radar) when I got the Luigi case, and never having seen one I cannot compare it to the Luigi case (I actually got the full case but never use the upper portion (anyone interested in a black leather upper please PM me)).

As far as loading difficulty, it's simply not. I have had formal testing and my fine motor control scores as impaired, <5 percentile on the right hand and <10 percentile on the left, and of course I'm right side dominant. But at any rate, I have no trouble loading (or operating) the ZI and the camera does not make me aware of having any physical impediment at all.
Best of luck with your decision,
Larry
 
I've had R2M, R3A and R4A and I much prefer the ZI to any of them. I disliked having to select the framelines manually when changing lenses and I disliked the way you had to press on that pesky button in the middle of the shutter speed dial to get from auto to manual. Another thing I prefer on the ZI is the larger rewind crank and I also prefer the ZI to the M7 but that's another story.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom