Front focus - M mount

Montag

Established
Local time
1:01 AM
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
68
I've only just noticed that my 50 f/2.0 Summicron - the first type - seems to front focus. i.e.; the point of actual focus is in front of the rangefinder focussed point.

I rarely use it at f/2.0 and only on film. Now having seen a few frames I remember being at f/2.0 in a row all off focus I asked a colleague with a digital M to check focus against a ruler and sure enough the focus point is a couple of cm in front of the rangefinder focus point.

Is that something that's easily corrected? Or just something inherent in this lens design? Sorry if that's an obvious question.
 
The focus-calibration error could be the fault of your 50mm lens or your camera, or both.

Can you ask your colleague who has a digital M to test your other lenses -- wide open, at various distances from closest focus to infinity? If they focus correctly, then your 50mm lens is at fault. It needs recalibrating.

Unfortunately, it's not easy finding Leica repair these days. I don't know if Leica USA will service your 50mm V1 lens, which is probably more than 60 years old.

My 50mm Summicron (V3-type) was back focusing, so I sent it to Don Goldberg (DAG), reputedly the best Leica repair person in the USA. That was 3.5 months ago and I'm still waiting. Leica USA is similarly slow.

Two other well-known Leica repair people declined my inquiries. Sherry Krauter said she's too busy to work on lenses, and Youxin Ye said he can't recalibrate focus.

In reply to someone in this forum who said many other excellent repair shops are available, I asked for recommendations. So far, no answers. (It's in the "Question about DAG" thread.)

The number of experienced people who can work on classic Leica equipment has been dwindling for years. There seem to be no young up-and-coming repair people who can replace the current ones, who are nearing retirement.

More surprising, current-model Voigtlander lenses for Leicas seem to be unrepairable. Even the authorized USA dealers I have contacted can't refer me to a repair service that works on them.

M-mount lenses should be easier to fix than DSLR and mirrorless lenses, because they lack autofocus motors, automatic diaphragms, computer chips, etc. Despite their relative simplicity, repair options are extremely limited.
 
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I suspect it is just the lens, I haven't noticed any other obvious problems.

I'll see if I can summon the sheer bored energy to run test frames across multiple lenses and camera bodies and develop them first, to try to isolate the issue. In the meantime I think I'll just stop down and bracket focus a bit more than normal.

I hope there are newer repair options and that they just aren't as well known yet, everyone had to start somewhere in that line of work.
 
When I got my M10M I would compare the images shot using live view peak focus against RF focus. I trust live view to be more accurate. Not all lenses match up especially older lenses though I never noticed focus being off on film.
 
Checked via Google. No shims on this Cron.

I reshimed many RF lenses, but never had to do it with Leitz. And I took apart rigid and v3 for focus relube.

Keep in mind what you need to test them from wide open to at least down to 5.6.
All Crons do focus shift, more or less and all were optimized on certain aperture. My v4 was optimized @ f2 and closer distances and was focus shifting closed down and on far distance.

I had Summar, optically clean, not so much focus shift, but wide open and close it was soft. More distance, more sharp. Each lens is individual.

You could do without film on film M. I used ground glass made from tiny picture from glass from dollarstore. I used film magnifier lope to see the test target. Mobile phone zoom it should do the same. Some are using developed, unexposed film instead of ground glass. M back door removed and shutter on B via shutter cable release with locking screw.
 
I would caution against checking focus by using a groundglass inserted in the film plane of a film Leica. If the shutter closes unexpectedly -- for example, if the locking cable release slips -- the shutter could be seriously damaged.

If a digital Leica isn't available to check focus, I would shoot and develop some cheap b&w film at various apertures and distances and then examine the negatives with a loupe. The groundglass method works but is risky.
 
I would caution against checking focus by using a groundglass inserted in the film plane of a film Leica. If the shutter closes unexpectedly -- for example, if the locking cable release slips -- the shutter could be seriously damaged.

If a digital Leica isn't available to check focus, I would shoot and develop some cheap b&w film at various apertures and distances and then examine the negatives with a loupe. The groundglass method works but is risky.
If a glass is sitting on the film rails, it is in the same plane as a film. I'd love to know how a piece of film resting on the film rails can harm the curtains, should they close. Tell me, please: how, precisely, is a ground glass any different?
 
No idea from where this fear is coming from. Real life expirince or just theoretics?
If you have working cable release with locking screw this thing will stay on indefenatelly once screwd in.
And with my repair expirience of focal shutters, it just doesn't sounds as something real.
 
...the shutter could be seriously damaged.
The groundglass method works but is risky.

Not unless you stick something into the shutter gate. A groundglass is essentially a pressure plate that is .02mm closer to the shutter, sitting on the inner film rails.

As for the lens, if this is a collapsible Summicron, there is less provision for adjustment than in the later rigid versions, but it can be done.

Phil Forrest
 
I've only just noticed that my 50 f/2.0 Summicron - the first type - seems to front focus. i.e.; the point of actual focus is in front of the rangefinder focussed point.

I rarely use it at f/2.0 and only on film. Now having seen a few frames I remember being at f/2.0 in a row all off focus I asked a colleague with a digital M to check focus against a ruler and sure enough the focus point is a couple of cm in front of the rangefinder focus point.

Is that something that's easily corrected? Or just something inherent in this lens design? Sorry if that's an obvious question.

A couple of cm at what distance? If this is an 1m- a bit much.
The Collapsible Summicron and Type 1 Rigid Summicrons are over-corrected for spherical aberration, same as the Summarit. I know that Leica designed the latter for optimal use close-up and F2.8. This means the Summarit will close-focus when used wide-open. Hard to know if your Summicron is the same- try it at F2.8.
 
Brian, if the collapsible Summicron and the Summarit are both over corrected for spherical aberration, and this is the cause of the Summarit close-focusing, is it not safe to think it's also causing the OP's problem? You seem cautious about that.

This is interesting, because it suggests there may actually be nothing wrong with the OP's lens. Could it be the shift of focus effect that occurs with some fast lenses?

I'll try to remember to put my collapsible Cron on my M9 and do a little experimenting! I've never noticed a problem, but then I don't do wide open shots at minimum distance.
 
No idea from where this fear is coming from. Real life expirince or just theoretics?
If you have working cable release with locking screw this thing will stay on indefenatelly once screwd in.
And with my repair expirience of focal shutters, it just doesn't sounds as something real.

Evidently you haven't seen the damage that focal-plane shutters can suffer when nonexperts mess around in the backs of their cameras. I have, so I urge caution. It's safer to test focusing accuracy by shooting a roll of film and inspecting the negatives with a loupe. That's all.
 
Brian, if the collapsible Summicron and the Summarit are both over corrected for spherical aberration, and this is the cause of the Summarit close-focusing, is it not safe to think it's also causing the OP's problem? You seem cautious about that.

This is interesting, because it suggests there may actually be nothing wrong with the OP's lens. Could it be the shift of focus effect that occurs with some fast lenses?

I'll try to remember to put my collapsible Cron on my M9 and do a little experimenting! I've never noticed a problem, but then I don't do wide open shots at minimum distance.

The collapsible Summicron was produced for several years, underwent a change in optical design. Hard to know if all of them were optimized for wide-open use, or for F2.8. I currently have 3, have had 7 total. Some where different from others.
 
Evidently you haven't seen the damage that focal-plane shutters can suffer when nonexperts mess around in the backs of their cameras. I have, so I urge caution. It's safer to test focusing accuracy by shooting a roll of film and inspecting the negatives with a loupe. That's all.

Who knows what morons do with cameras. 😀 I'm all eyes to see your expertise and evidence.

To me you have to be complete moron to manage something wrong with shutter open on B via shutter release cable with holding screw.
 
Who knows what morons do with cameras. 😀 I'm all eyes to see your expertise and evidence.

To me you have to be complete moron to manage something wrong with shutter open on B via shutter release cable with holding screw.


Yes, I actually have experienced a locking cable release unexpectedly unlock. Luckily it didn't happen while I was messing around in the back of the camera. It happened during a long nighttime exposure while making "open flash" multiple exposures. Somehow the locking nut slipped, ruining a carefully planned exposure. Later I wrote an article for Shutterbug Magazine about open-flash technique and included some of my photographs:

"Special Effects From Open Flash"
Shutterbug, 1989
https://www.halfhill.com/openflash.html

But the immediate question is whether this thread's original questioner is more likely to have handy a roll of film or a locking cable release and a ground glass cut exactly to size to fit inside the film channel of a 35mm camera. I say the roll of film is more likely; others disagree. Or else they think it's easier to buy a locking cable release and some ground glass, cut the glass to size, bevel the sharp edges, clean off the powdery residue, and then perform the suggested focus-checking experiment. I can shoot and develop a roll of film in as much time.

Now to the hazards of focal-plane shutters. Forty years ago in Cleveland, I discovered a marvelous little shop filled with odd merchandise and operated by an elderly sole proprietor. It wasn't really a camera shop, but he was a surviving member of that near-extinct species, the general fix-it man. Among other odd things, he sold me long-discontinued but new-in-box vacuum tubes for my 1940s Crosley AM/SW radio. I also bought a powerful muffin fan salvaged from a scrapped mainframe computer. (Still have it.)

What could he fix? How about a mysterious shutter-curtain leak in my Canon TX? A stuck between-the-lens shutter in my Konica Auto-S2? A slipping film advance that overlapped frames in my Canon QL17? (He never fixed my Ricoh 500G, though, because that cheap little camera worked flawlessly for decades until a collision destroyed the viewfinder.) I wish I could remember that man's name. I wish even more that I had taken his picture in his little shop of wonders.

He had nothing nice to say about focal-plane shutters. Lens shutters are beyond the photographer's reach, but an FP shutter is exposed whenever film is loaded. In dim light, or in a hurry, even an experienced photographer can punch a finger through the fragile shutter curtains. I'm certain he would recoil at the idea of a typical amateur photographer checking focus with a ground glass. His bone yard told the story. Doctors say "Never stick anything in your ear except your elbow." My fix-it man would say "Never stick anything in the back of your camera except film."

It doesn't take a moron to make an expensive mistake. Repair people have been feeding their families on that truism since 1839, I suspect.
 
Yes, I actually have experienced a locking cable release unexpectedly unlock. Luckily it didn't happen while I was messing around in the back of the camera. It happened during a long nighttime exposure while making "open flash" multiple exposures. Somehow the locking nut slipped, ruining a carefully planned exposure. Later I wrote an article for Shutterbug Magazine about open-flash technique and included some of my photographs:

"Special Effects From Open Flash"
Shutterbug, 1989
https://www.halfhill.com/openflash.html

But the immediate question is whether this thread's original questioner is more likely to have handy a roll of film or a locking cable release and a ground glass cut exactly to size to fit inside the film channel of a 35mm camera. I say the roll of film is more likely; others disagree. Or else they think it's easier to buy a locking cable release and some ground glass, cut the glass to size, bevel the sharp edges, clean off the powdery residue, and then perform the suggested focus-checking experiment. I can shoot and develop a roll of film in as much time.

Now to the hazards of focal-plane shutters. Forty years ago in Cleveland, I discovered a marvelous little shop filled with odd merchandise and operated by an elderly sole proprietor. It wasn't really a camera shop, but he was a surviving member of that near-extinct species, the general fix-it man. Among other odd things, he sold me long-discontinued but new-in-box vacuum tubes for my 1940s Crosley AM/SW radio. I also bought a powerful muffin fan salvaged from a scrapped mainframe computer. (Still have it.)

What could he fix? How about a mysterious shutter-curtain leak in my Canon TX? A stuck between-the-lens shutter in my Konica Auto-S2? A slipping film advance that overlapped frames in my Canon QL17? (He never fixed my Ricoh 500G, though, because that cheap little camera worked flawlessly for decades until a collision destroyed the viewfinder.) I wish I could remember that man's name. I wish even more that I had taken his picture in his little shop of wonders.

He had nothing nice to say about focal-plane shutters. Lens shutters are beyond the photographer's reach, but an FP shutter is exposed whenever film is loaded. In dim light, or in a hurry, even an experienced photographer can punch a finger through the fragile shutter curtains. I'm certain he would recoil at the idea of a typical amateur photographer checking focus with a ground glass. His bone yard told the story. Doctors say "Never stick anything in your ear except your elbow." My fix-it man would say "Never stick anything in the back of your camera except film."

It doesn't take a moron to make an expensive mistake. Repair people have been feeding their families on that truism since 1839, I suspect.
Let's unpack some of the above comments.

I've personally cut and ground glasses for focus checking. Takes less than half an hour with some basic equipment and cerium oxide. Glass is pretty water resistant stuff. Getting it clean after takes at least five seconds under a tap. Whenever I need to use a glass: it's waiting for me along with my others (more on that later).

On a cable unlocking itself.
I notice that when describing your experiences of that, you don't say that your camera shutter was toasted when the cable released. It appears I have to state the obvious. So I will. A cable closing the curtains will cause no damage to the camera when using a ground glass, because the glass is not going to impede the curtain travel. In order for any curtain damage to occur you would have to insert the glass into the rear of the camera body and then close the curtains. Even then (if the curtains are fabric) you're unlikely to actually hurt those. What might be more problematic is if the ribbons slack off and jump off their pulleys or roller (depending on the design). This could be anything from a minor inconvenience to a major disassembly to rectify (again, depending on the design).

I suppose the take away is that, yes, there is an element of risk involved in using a ground glass. This is true. But there's a risk involved in getting out of bed in the morning. Where I object to the thrust of your arguments is in the level of risk involved, which you have vastly overstated. If you aren't confident of being able to gently place a small glass over your camera film rails and tape it in situ, temporarily, without lunching your shutter, then-- frankly--you should probably dispose of it, post haste. Because you're at least as likely to stick a thumb through a curtain the very next time you try to load a film into it. Speaking plainly (again), I find your arguments, preposterous.

If I have time after dinner this evening I may just set a ground glass over the rails of an Exakta SLR I need to check. I've got around a dozen glasses here of various sizes for 35mm & 120 film camera gates and a selection of loupes for examining said glasses. I am not the only member of this site to possess similar equipment. I use it frequently. I suppose I run the risk of ruining the Exaktas curtains when I do. But seeing as I have just fitted new ones to it, if that happens, I'll just curse a little (or a lot) and install another set. Does this make me an "expert"? "nonexpert" by your definitions? I don't know (and care less). I do know that I can check focus with a glass without breaking a camera in the process. Incidentally, my wife trusts me to operate, solo, sharp kitchen knives, the coffee machine, and, (on a good day), even the toaster. If you reckon the likelihood of sticking your pinkies (or anything else) into a shutter is as big a deal as you have suggested: Quit photography. Now. You're about to destroy your camera.

And stay out of kitchens.
 
Probably about the same level of risk for damaging the curtains by putting your finger or the film through the curtains when loading film. People have done that. The curtains are exposed, the back is open, and you have to run a thin piece of plastic across the back.
That never stopped anyone from loading a camera with film and no one ever advises not loading a camera with film because you might damage the shutter. Use care and common sense.

For testing focus at the image plane: I use an exposed negative strip with translucent paper taped to one side. I tape the strip across the rails. I use a 15x Loupe with a glass front that fits nicely across the rails.
 
For testing focus at the image plane: I use an exposed negative strip with translucent paper taped to one side. I tape the strip across the rails. I use a 15x Loupe with a glass front that fits nicely across the rails.

Excellent advise, but it is not easy to correct the lens. You'll need spacer rings if you need to increase the distance film to optics. Where can you get those? To decrease the distance is even more difficult.

Erik.
 
Probably about the same level of risk for damaging the curtains by putting your finger or the film through the curtains when loading film. People have done that. The curtains are exposed, the back is open, and you have to run a thin piece of plastic across the back.
That never stopped anyone from loading a camera with film and no one ever advises not loading a camera with film because you might damage the shutter. Use care and common sense.


For testing focus at the image plane: I use an exposed negative strip with translucent paper taped to one side. I tape the strip across the rails. I use a 15x Loupe with a glass front that fits nicely across the rails.
Precisely.
 
Shims can be made from paper, aluminum foil, just about any thin material. In most lenses, multiple shims are used- removing a thin one corrects close-focus. For thick ones- they can be polished down.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/trick-to-assemble-collapsible-summicron-aperture.143338/

Many Leica lenses do not use Shims- they were "fit and Finish", not easily set. The Summarit 5cm F1.5 is like this. To correct close-focus at F1.5 on the Summarit, I took out the rear groups and fitted with a thin shim. The shim from a J-8 worked well. My Summarit is now optimized for close-up/wide-open use.

Many of these lenses require you to improvise to get the desired effect.
 
Back
Top Bottom