ampguy
Veteran
really
really
so what is the law on using a "coupon email" that links to some public image?
and is a "coupon email" taking the image "off the internet" ?
really
so what is the law on using a "coupon email" that links to some public image?
and is a "coupon email" taking the image "off the internet" ?
Andy Kibber
Well-known
There’s no point in speculating about the niceties of copyright law.
Chris101
summicronia
Seems to work out OK for my lawyer pals.
My girlfriend is a lawyer and says "Sue on!"
akremer
Established
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Just ask the owner to pony up a few rounds of drinks and provide a Get in Free card. He's happy, you're happy.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
You are basically "Sh** Outta Luck" in spite of all the legal precedents being on your side. The club owner is wrong, you are right but.......... There is no way you are ever going to win economically.
Accept it as a life lesson learned and move on.
NickTrop
Veteran
Correct. Forget about it and move on.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Suck it up and Move On.
Suck it up and Move On.
Yes, technically you're in the right. No, you probably won't win - and yes, to try to win will cost.
Face the facts guys - the moment you display stuff on the internet it's likely to be pinched by somebody with no knowledge of the law or no scruples. It's the price we pay for free-flowing information and the technology revolution.
You can take some steps to watermark and copyright stuff on your own website but put it into a public area like Flickr and you're toast! The only possible solution is only to post small, low-res images that pixelate badly the moment anyone tries to expand them beyond postage stamp size.
Suck it up and Move On.
Yes, technically you're in the right. No, you probably won't win - and yes, to try to win will cost.
Face the facts guys - the moment you display stuff on the internet it's likely to be pinched by somebody with no knowledge of the law or no scruples. It's the price we pay for free-flowing information and the technology revolution.
You can take some steps to watermark and copyright stuff on your own website but put it into a public area like Flickr and you're toast! The only possible solution is only to post small, low-res images that pixelate badly the moment anyone tries to expand them beyond postage stamp size.
mwooten
light user
+1
Don't escalate the dispute until absolutely necessary. Bringing in lawyers will bring the dispute to a new level; if the club owner is defensive aggressive, you are likely to end up in a legal battle with no winners (except, possibly, the lawyers).
Solve the dispute with as little effort and aggression as possible.
Just my 2c
PS: I'm a lawyer, working, amongst other things, with intellectual property rights; go on flame me, you know you want to
^ What he said.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
Get the club owner's email and send him the link to this thread. Or print the thread out in its entirety and give him a hard copy. Just so he knows the real issues. Then move on. Life is too short. Tell him there's other clubs, that photos taken in his establishment, even for free, are also free advertising for him.
And also, advertising can be either bad or good, it's essentially a matter of reputation. At this point, he has more public reputation to defend (and more at stake to lose) than do you.
~Joe
And also, advertising can be either bad or good, it's essentially a matter of reputation. At this point, he has more public reputation to defend (and more at stake to lose) than do you.
~Joe
jmarcus
Well-known
Wow I really appreciate all the effort people have put into responding to this post. I was really angry when I saw my picture used. I agree there maybe a lack of legal precedent around the Facebook issue, but I don't think it give a third party to use my photo.
I did not post all of the emails regarding this issue, but now I will. Keep in mind I did call the club "assholes" on my Facebook status within the first moments of seeing that they used the picture without permission.
My First email to the club:
Hi,
I was really disappointed to see yesterdays Groupon for CLUB NAME REMOVED using a photo I took. It was not credited and I was not consulted about the use of my intellectual property.
Sincerely,
James
---------------
Their Response:
Hey James,
There was no intention to disrespect you in any way. Your disappointment would have been better received had you not called us Assholes on your facebook status that morning. From our point of view, any photo taken in our place with or without permission from us, and then tagged by the photographer to our facebook, would not be considered by the photographer as his intellectual property. Another way of thinking about this is that you came into our place, took pictures of our stage with our paid performer on it, posted it, and did not consult us. Now that we understand your point of view, and again, see your readiness to slam us before contacting us, we surely will not use your photos and can untag them. Considering all this, it would be best that you do not take photos at our venue in the future. Thanks.
------------
My Response:
I posted pictures tagged with CLUB NAME REMOVED to support the bands and your club. I'm sure you understand that photographers have to make a living too, and that the law is very clear about this property, as it is with music. You have right to prohibit photography at your venue, but do not, or at least I have never been asked to stop taking pictures. I have been a long time supporter of CLUB NAME REMOVED and I'm surprised by your response.
----------
Their final response:
Hi James, I spoke with two lawyers about this actually and both were pretty clear about the fact that the photos were taken in our club and it is not your property. Again, being called Assholes on your facebook really, to me, set the attitude for our exchange. You haven't apologized for that to me or publicly and I am surprised that you are surprised by my response. Anyway, I appreciate any intention you had in the past to support us and the bands. And you do take nice photos.
I did not post all of the emails regarding this issue, but now I will. Keep in mind I did call the club "assholes" on my Facebook status within the first moments of seeing that they used the picture without permission.
My First email to the club:
Hi,
I was really disappointed to see yesterdays Groupon for CLUB NAME REMOVED using a photo I took. It was not credited and I was not consulted about the use of my intellectual property.
Sincerely,
James
---------------
Their Response:
Hey James,
There was no intention to disrespect you in any way. Your disappointment would have been better received had you not called us Assholes on your facebook status that morning. From our point of view, any photo taken in our place with or without permission from us, and then tagged by the photographer to our facebook, would not be considered by the photographer as his intellectual property. Another way of thinking about this is that you came into our place, took pictures of our stage with our paid performer on it, posted it, and did not consult us. Now that we understand your point of view, and again, see your readiness to slam us before contacting us, we surely will not use your photos and can untag them. Considering all this, it would be best that you do not take photos at our venue in the future. Thanks.
------------
My Response:
I posted pictures tagged with CLUB NAME REMOVED to support the bands and your club. I'm sure you understand that photographers have to make a living too, and that the law is very clear about this property, as it is with music. You have right to prohibit photography at your venue, but do not, or at least I have never been asked to stop taking pictures. I have been a long time supporter of CLUB NAME REMOVED and I'm surprised by your response.
----------
Their final response:
Hi James, I spoke with two lawyers about this actually and both were pretty clear about the fact that the photos were taken in our club and it is not your property. Again, being called Assholes on your facebook really, to me, set the attitude for our exchange. You haven't apologized for that to me or publicly and I am surprised that you are surprised by my response. Anyway, I appreciate any intention you had in the past to support us and the bands. And you do take nice photos.
jmarcus
Well-known
The Photo
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
He's lying, he didn't consult a lawyer. I've dealt with this type before. Do not listen to the chicken littles here. Have YOUR lawyer send him a letter explaining the FEDERAL COPYRIGHT LAW. You will get your money, this will not cost you a lot of money. Copyright cases can get expensive against large corporations with deep pockets who delay things repeatedly to drive up the little guy's legal fees. This club will not and cannot do that, they are a small business and will not want to go to court. Have the lawyer send a bill with the letter for his fees plus your fee for the photo (I recommend $500 for you). He will pay once he gets the lawyer's letter. Trust me. Do not listen to these amatuers who have no clue about how this works who tell you to roll over and give up. I and several other fulltime professionals have told you what to do. By the way, the first amendment gives you EVERY right to call the club owner an asshole. That's not considered slander or libel because the courts have ruled that terms of gratuitous abouse (like asshole) are not slander/libel. If he doesn't like being called one, he shouldn't steal.
Alpacaman
keen bean
Well, he has not apologised for stealing your photo :angel:
Also, you have registered this photo for copyright, yes? (I understand that is the done thing in the USA?)
Jaans
Well-known
Well said Chris. The sooner photogs stand their ground the better it is across the board.
On another note (no reference to the OP), the reason that fees paid to photographers is declining can be attributed to the attitude of a whole plethora of amateurs who are only too thrilled to have their photo used by a company and hence don't seek reimbursement from said companies. The end of the line for a lot of them is a quick boast to friends that they have a photograph that has been reproduced in a marketing campaign. Often they will not seek their due payment for the photo for this reason. Getty and flickr rely heavily on this attitude that is oh so prevalent in photography forums like flickr etc
That is the downside of digital being available to so many as many photogs see themselves as gaining their 15 minutes without seeking financial reimbursement and this either drives down the price across the board or makes it more difficult to procure payment in cases like this. It is common practise these days for smaller companies to lift photographs from the internet for publicity campaigns as they know there is small chance that the photographer in question will a)realize the photo has been lifted b)seek reimbursement if they even do see this.
So, like Chris said please ignore the amateurs comments and seek due payment. It is owing to you.
Brian Legge
Veteran
As it sounds like the opportunity for an mutually beneficial dialog/relationship is already off the table - ie he already jumped to 'don't take photos again here in the future' - my suggestions oriented around building a relationship are irrelevant.
As an aside, any time I've known someone involved in legal dealings like this was instructed by their lawyer to not post info online as it could undermine claims, lead to slander allegations, etc (ie I don't know exactly why lawyers advise this, but I have seen people generally stop discussing details like the exchange above the moment lawyers get involved). If you are considering consulting someone, you may want to do so before saying much more here to be sure you don't accidentally undermine your position or give him more ammo to use against you.
As an aside, any time I've known someone involved in legal dealings like this was instructed by their lawyer to not post info online as it could undermine claims, lead to slander allegations, etc (ie I don't know exactly why lawyers advise this, but I have seen people generally stop discussing details like the exchange above the moment lawyers get involved). If you are considering consulting someone, you may want to do so before saying much more here to be sure you don't accidentally undermine your position or give him more ammo to use against you.
PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
Next time you might want to act more honorably than you did. Why (even though they might be) call someone "assholes" before you know the facts? If you hadn't insulted them, it appears to me from their responses that you might have been able to come to an agreement that would have suited you both.
While hiring a lawyer is the immediate knee jerk reaction from people here, you may want to think about it first. A lawyer will cost you money that you might not get back. A lawyer's letter might base a claim on copyright, but it rests in commercial law. The owner of the club can simply refuse to pay and then where are you at? At best a letter from a lawyer is a veiled threat that you probably won't be able to pursue (and the lawyer won't want to either) but either way it will cost you money.
Chris before you call people here "chicken littles" and get all indignant you might want to have a fuller understanding of the law, and not just copyright law. From your posts above it appears that you think you understand what you are talking about, but I don't think you have a full grasp of it, or at least full enough to be giving legal advice to someone you don't know on the internet.
While hiring a lawyer is the immediate knee jerk reaction from people here, you may want to think about it first. A lawyer will cost you money that you might not get back. A lawyer's letter might base a claim on copyright, but it rests in commercial law. The owner of the club can simply refuse to pay and then where are you at? At best a letter from a lawyer is a veiled threat that you probably won't be able to pursue (and the lawyer won't want to either) but either way it will cost you money.
Chris before you call people here "chicken littles" and get all indignant you might want to have a fuller understanding of the law, and not just copyright law. From your posts above it appears that you think you understand what you are talking about, but I don't think you have a full grasp of it, or at least full enough to be giving legal advice to someone you don't know on the internet.
_mark__
Well-known
let me get this straight -
You went into their club, took photos without permission, published to Facebook, tagged the club , then complain when they link the photo and the very first thing you do is call them assholes on a public website?
Most clubs ban photography as a condition of entry, that they don't enforce it is a gesture of goodwill on their part, and because the realize that friends wanting to photograph friends in club is not commercial. Beyond that, a whole host of privacy and release laws come into play. Even the guys that go round selling you the photos they have just taken have to seek permission.
Now you are seeking a legal recourse?
If you take photographs with any frequency in that club or any of the neighboring ones I suggest you apologies and hope they do not all permanently exclude you! In future contact the promoter and management of both the club and the bands/dj's you are photographing to get permission to do so as the laws here are very specific, if you do this you may have a legal leg to stand on.
Personally I would try to turn this very negative experience into a positive, they obviously like your work so apologies for calling them assholes and use it to your advantage.
You went into their club, took photos without permission, published to Facebook, tagged the club , then complain when they link the photo and the very first thing you do is call them assholes on a public website?
Most clubs ban photography as a condition of entry, that they don't enforce it is a gesture of goodwill on their part, and because the realize that friends wanting to photograph friends in club is not commercial. Beyond that, a whole host of privacy and release laws come into play. Even the guys that go round selling you the photos they have just taken have to seek permission.
Now you are seeking a legal recourse?
If you take photographs with any frequency in that club or any of the neighboring ones I suggest you apologies and hope they do not all permanently exclude you! In future contact the promoter and management of both the club and the bands/dj's you are photographing to get permission to do so as the laws here are very specific, if you do this you may have a legal leg to stand on.
Personally I would try to turn this very negative experience into a positive, they obviously like your work so apologies for calling them assholes and use it to your advantage.
btgc
Veteran
I wonder if someone has suggested to make a shot of club and put on facebook next to stolen picture with explanation how you got crooked by owner?
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
If you had put the image on your private webspace, Chris Crawford's suggestion would be workable, but in all probability this is not the case. Whether they lied in saying they consulted a lawyer or not is also rather secondary.
As others have suggested, read up on Facebook's usage and adverticing policy. *It* did not give rights to anyone, *you* did by signing up to Facebook and agreeing to their terms and conditions.
Basically the lesson learned should be (a) not to call people assholes before engaging in a discussion with them, and (b) that Facebook is a very bad place to publish your pictures if you want to retain legal control over their usage.
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