Skiff
Well-known
Then the information given to me was wrong. Sorry for that.
But Tak Koyama has built a complete new perforating machine for small format film for converting. Currently used for his Provia 100F S8 film. I think he has done such a big investment because he is believing in the future of S8.
brbo
Well-known
So the market collapsed long long time ago and then Fuji discontinued production of the film just recently? Or were they selling from stock for all that time? Do you have that information?
You have no solid information. Just as the guy that wrote that article based on pure speculation. Btw. the article was not about where the pictures in the article were shot, no information/speculation in the article was based or even referenced to the pictorial material that accompanied the article (what's more, the pictures are clearly labeled to be of Fuji Europe plant, so there is no need to repeat that here).
You feed us information that the current Fuji films are still being produced at the moment (and are not sold from the stock) yet never provide coherent answers. "Fuji selling billions of tons of Instax" is not an answer to a question like why does Fuji think that LF photographers would rather shoot Velvia 100 than Velvia 50 (every box of that stuff that surfaces is immediately sold)?! Or why no LF negative film at all? Why no more fast films anymore (no, analogue shooters didn't all buy flashes in the last year!)? Is any current Fuji film not being produced anymore and is sold from stock? Why have some of the Fuji negative films doubled in price in the last year or two (it's obviously not the production costs since Instax films would then have to get more expensive too)? Etc, etc...
You get a few quotes from marketing people that wouldn't give you information about Fuji's current state of traditional film production even if they had it. I really mean no disrespect but let us all accept that fact.
I LOVE Fuji films. I don't think there is a single Fuji film that I don't like. But at this point it has become much harder to justify buying Fuji films. I'd rather give my money to Kodak (and help them survive) than to Fuji (to help them make their traditional film exit more profitable). Kodak needs the money, Fuji doesn't. Fuji also doesn't give me the feeling that me buying their film will help it survive even just a tiny bit longer...
HHPhoto
Well-known
I talked about that topic two years ago with my distributor when Fujifilm made the discontinuation anouncement. Their company shipped packfilm for a very long time. They said, that about 85% of their customers were passport photograpers. About 10% professionals with photo studios. And only about 5% were amateurs, artists or enthusiasts.
This was the situation before the 'digital revolution'. With digital first the studio photographers stopped using packfilm. Lots of passport photographers continued using packfilm for a longer time. But then also they stopped using packfilm: First in the industrialised countries, and some years later in the developing countries.
The demand from the developing countries / emerging markets has prolonged the life of packfilm.
But in these markets in the last years all passport photography has gone digital, too.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
Back to topic: The posting of John Sypal.
Please:
Can some of our Japanese located members (e.g. jonmanjiro) please give us a correct translation of the original Japanese text?
That would be wonderful!
Thanks and cheers, Jan
joeswe
Well-known
I am not Japanese located, I hope you do not mind
http://www.itmedia.co.jp/news/articles/1807/25/news078.html
article basically tells ut that Fuji studies/examines/evaluates (検討) the possibility of restarting producion of black and white photographic film. This came out as the result of an inquiry by itmedia. Reportedly Fuji has received a lot of feedback from photo enthusiasts asking them to restart production.
Fuji stresses that while they are evaluating the possibilities, the basic problems of shrunk demand and [difficulty of] sourcing specialized raw materials that lead to the discontinuation decision, are still the same as they were before and not solved.
"This is really only the beginning of an evaluation, [nothing more], talking about possible launch dates is absolutely out of question at the moment"
HHPhoto
Well-known
Thank you very much!
Concerning the problem with raw materials: Totally understandable. Kodak has reported similar problems with the Ektachrome project.
And I remember that the CEO of Adox explained that they have had finished the R&D for a new Polywarmtone paper three times: And every time when they had finished raw materials were not available anymore and they had to start R&D again!
And afaik it was also the reason why Foma had to stop its ISO 800 film, problems with raw material availability.
As Acros is quite unique with its orthopanchromatic sensitisation and its unsurpassed performance in long term exposure, it is quite likely that some very special materials are used in this film.
Cheers, Jan
joeswe
Well-known
It should be noted that the article/Fuji talks generally about restarting black and white photographic film production, not relaunching a specific product (Acros). Also, the way I read it, reasons for discontinuation refers probably not to Acros specifically but to discontinuation of b&w film production altogether (which coincided as Acros was the last film in the portfolio). This is not to dispute that Acros is the most likely candidate for a comeback, as it was still in production until recently. It is just not mentioned expressis verbis by Fuji.
brbo
Well-known
Basically saying low demand was the cause for discontinuation and now (a few months after they've coated their last BW film) raw material unavailability is the cause that BW films can't be brought back.
I bet it will make perfect sense to some people here...
I bet it will make perfect sense to some people here...
Freakscene
Obscure member
Yes, it was, and it nearly killed the 200, but Foma found an alternative.
I guess you’ve never manufactured a specialised, complicated product. There are almost inevitably highly specialised components in something like Acros which are probably used in few or no other uses. So Fuji discontinues Acros, tells their suppliers they won’t need any more of their product, so those suppliers stop manufacture and fill their schedule as best they can with other products. So Fuji decide to stop production for economic reasons, but there is immediately a flow-on effect of discontinuations of components. This makes re-commencing manufacture somewhere between very difficult and almost impossible.
Marty
brbo
Well-known
True.
If Fuji decided to stop production based on low demand, there is absolutely no point in accessing raw material availability options a couple of months later...
Freakscene
Obscure member
It is possible that the rate at which the residual Acros sold made them think twice. We have no idea when they really coated the last emulsion, but it was certainly a lot more than a few months ago. More like 2-3+ years. So they may now be interested again, but totally out of options for componentry.
The additional problem is that the components may not be economical to manufacture at lower volume and may have very high re-start costs. This has a flow-on magnifying effect. Fuji have probably figured that even if a lot of people are asking for Acros, not many of them would pay $15 a roll for it.
Even if Fuji did decide to make another B&W film, it most probably wouldn’t be Acros.
Marty
brbo
Well-known
So, you are saying it's perfectly possible that many other films sold today might have been coated years ago and will go away whether we keep buying them or not? Even if we buy a lot of them from now on (like Acros 100)?
HHPhoto
Well-known
I completely agree.
The Adox CEO once explained in a forum that even at the film demand peak in 2000 Agfa Germany coated their BW films in a 1,5 year schedule. And from that production the film had been converted from the master rolls continuesly. Therefore a 2-3(4) year schedule today looks reasonable.
Coating has never been a "we coat film xy every month" business. Not even in the film boom times.
+1.
And it also could be that some materials are not available anymore in the meantime. Therefore new R&D with additional costs for raw material replacement would be necessary. But would the customers pay for that necessary R&D?
Cheers, Jan
Ted Striker
Well-known
I'd love to know what chemical needed for a black and white film is so hard to obtain. These films have been around for centuries. This is hardly new technology.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ted,
Centuries?
Not even two centuries so far. Several sensitizing compounds go back only to about WW2.
I am reminded of the reporter who in 1990 referred to (Christian) Passion Plays as have been around for "thousands of years".
Cheers,
R.
Freakscene
Obscure member
If the technology was the same since photography began photographers would have had Acros or an equivalent in the 19th century. The organic dyes that make the film faster, which decrease reciprocity and which lubricate and prevent static on the reverse side of the film are very complicated and incredibly specialised and are often not used for anything else. Many of the compounds in film emulsions which accelerate development are, for example, poly(vinyl pyrrolidone) compounds.
Marty
HHPhoto
Well-known
Your comment could not be more far away from reality......
Film production is extremely complicated. It is really high-tech. Kind of rocket-science. Film is the most complicated chemical product in general.
Do yourself a favour and buy the excellent book "Making Kodak Film" by Robert Shanebrook. Then you will see.
As I've written above:
"And I remember that the CEO of Adox explained that they have had finished the R&D for the new Polywarmtone paper three times: And every time when they had finished raw materials were not available anymore and they had to start R&D again!"
He said that in this BW paper are about 130 (!!) different raw materials! And these must work together perfectly.
So if your losing some of them, you really have a big problem!
Cheers, Jan
brbo
Well-known
Rocket science is at Fuji's, not at raw material suppliers.
HHPhoto
Well-known
I've written about the film manufacturers.
Concerning raw materials:
As an engineer who was also envolved in chemical production in the past I can assure you that the chemical synthesis of components / raw materials can also often be very complicated and expensive.
Cheers, Jan
Freakscene
Obscure member
Reading this makes me certain that you have never been involved with, or have any notion of what the commercial production of, for example, a long chain organic molecule with a dozen structural isomers and hundreds of stereoisomers, requires. Suppliers to film manufacturers do this and produce a product which is 99.9% one structural and stereoisomer, with less than 0.00001% contaminants, and produce it for less than $US 1,000 a kilogram, and deliver it in up to 100kg lots with less than 6 weeks notice each time.
This thread makes me more and more aware that film users just don’t know what they have in their hands.
Marty