btgc
Veteran
Is Fuji supplying film for Hollywood or Kodak has it all?
tsiklonaut
Well-known
They should supply, since many recent films I've seen have "Fujifilm" logo somewhere in the end titles. But juding how many time I've seen the logo then Kodak seems have the majority in the film industry(?)
rjstep3
Established
Interesting (as always) to follow a thread here.
My mother-in-law just dug out my wife's maternal grandfather's camera - an Agfa Super Silette with f2.8 lens and therefore manufactured in the year I was born (1958). I have polished it up and this morning bought a film in Boots the chemist going into work. A chap saw me buying a roll of film and asked me about it. He had no idea people were still using film - he had long given up on it and used digital. He saw the opportunity and tried to sell me his old Pentax gear. What was interesting was that he, like other people I meet, did not know film was still out there AT ALL. They all think that it had died a death years ago.
I hear all these things about film, but I have no solid statistics about film use vs demand and supply. I have no information about the economics of it - about producing and shipping the stuff. Obviously a lot of people here on RFF still use film - but I don't see many film cameras on my travels. This year on a two week holiday in Sri Lanka, I think I only saw two film cameras - oddly, one was a Contax G2 just like mine. I just don't see film cameras any more: it is very much the exception when I do see one and it is all the more striking for it. Believe me, I keep my eyes open for other men's "kit" out there, but I just don't see film cameras any more.
As against which, there is still a vast amount of film equipment being offloaded on ebay and elsewhere, which suggests that people are still giving up film. I often ask people on ebay why they are selling, and the common answer is that they are just giving up on film.
My impression, and it is only an impression, is that film has had something of a revival, but that revival is running out of steam.
What that means is that the market is drying up, and those remaining behind (the processors, printers, shops and so on) are getting more business simply because so many others have left the market.
The future? I refuse to believe that it is beyond the wit of man to make film and equipment in an age of crowd-funding and 3D printing. If the Victorians could make film for a TINY market back in the mid-nineteenth century, then we can too. It may be that the market has to settle and we will be looking to niche firms like Ilford and Adox to make our film, but it won't stop.
Ironically, it is cameras like my "new" Agfa Super Silette which will carry on for years to come - it will likely survive me now.
I remain cautiously optimistic - but ready for change, upheaval even.
rjstep3
My mother-in-law just dug out my wife's maternal grandfather's camera - an Agfa Super Silette with f2.8 lens and therefore manufactured in the year I was born (1958). I have polished it up and this morning bought a film in Boots the chemist going into work. A chap saw me buying a roll of film and asked me about it. He had no idea people were still using film - he had long given up on it and used digital. He saw the opportunity and tried to sell me his old Pentax gear. What was interesting was that he, like other people I meet, did not know film was still out there AT ALL. They all think that it had died a death years ago.
I hear all these things about film, but I have no solid statistics about film use vs demand and supply. I have no information about the economics of it - about producing and shipping the stuff. Obviously a lot of people here on RFF still use film - but I don't see many film cameras on my travels. This year on a two week holiday in Sri Lanka, I think I only saw two film cameras - oddly, one was a Contax G2 just like mine. I just don't see film cameras any more: it is very much the exception when I do see one and it is all the more striking for it. Believe me, I keep my eyes open for other men's "kit" out there, but I just don't see film cameras any more.
As against which, there is still a vast amount of film equipment being offloaded on ebay and elsewhere, which suggests that people are still giving up film. I often ask people on ebay why they are selling, and the common answer is that they are just giving up on film.
My impression, and it is only an impression, is that film has had something of a revival, but that revival is running out of steam.
What that means is that the market is drying up, and those remaining behind (the processors, printers, shops and so on) are getting more business simply because so many others have left the market.
The future? I refuse to believe that it is beyond the wit of man to make film and equipment in an age of crowd-funding and 3D printing. If the Victorians could make film for a TINY market back in the mid-nineteenth century, then we can too. It may be that the market has to settle and we will be looking to niche firms like Ilford and Adox to make our film, but it won't stop.
Ironically, it is cameras like my "new" Agfa Super Silette which will carry on for years to come - it will likely survive me now.
I remain cautiously optimistic - but ready for change, upheaval even.
rjstep3
bmattock
Veteran
Fotohuis
Well-known
Well, Ilford is indicating to me (de Beukelaer) a price increase of 30%-50% particular photo paper is involved in this extremely high price increase next month (At least Europe is involved). So the average of Fuji 10%-15% is still moderate. Maybe Ilford/Pemberstone wants to make the money now already.
About Foma we will have a minor price increase because they dropped the DX-codes on their 135-36 films to be more competative in the lower price level.
Indeed a good moment for Ferrania to step in the production of color films. The first delivery should be somewhere in March 2016.
Fuji products are already expensive in BeNeLux so there won't be changing much. In E-6 it is already a lot of money so there will be more "space" for Ferrania then.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
A post over on APUG by "Harman Tech Service" has this to say on the rumour:
"Price rise rumours not true
Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party here. We've not made any price rises, or discussed any with our distributors. Last price rises on film and paper were I believe 2013. So this is not true at all, just pure rumour.
Neil"
Fotohuis
Well-known
Maybe "de Beukelaer" wants to sell their stock more quickly over the European seller points then .....
Last price list update from Ilford I had from August 2014, so that 2013 story is not true. Pemberstone = Pinokkio????
bmattock
Veteran
Your suppositions are entirely logical, and I agree with you. I believe that there will 'always' be a market for photographic film - even though that market is a niche or boutique market. That demand will be supplied by companies that can survive at relatively low volumes. That precludes large manufacturers, most likely, because their factories were built for high volume; I would guess that scaling down would be difficult. I believe it also means that more photographic products will fall by the wayside. We are already seeing this, as reversal films disappear and color negative choices diminish. We have also seen the loss of film formats for which there is little demand, such as 110 and 126, APS, and Disc. We are left with essentially 35mm, 120, some common sheet film sizes, and cine film of various sorts.
Kodak 'film' is essentially now two companies, as the consumer film division was taken over by the Kodak UK retirement fund. They have pulled back to Kodak Gold 200 and Kodak Ultra Max 400. Nothing else. The new company is named 'Kodak Alaris', but they continue to advertise their product under the brand name 'Kodak'.
http://www.kodakalaris.com/about/frequently-asked-questions
Kodak still owns the professional film division. The list of films and formats they provide is naturally longer (and in far more formats), but nowhere near what it was:
Film Cat No.
KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX 100 Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL TRI-X 320 Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL TRI-X 400 Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 160 Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 400 Film
KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTAR 100 Film
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/filmsIndex.jhtml?pq-path=13319
Things have changed, and changed rapidly. The digital revolution in photography has been extremely disruptive. The last few bastions of photographic film in industry, medical and the movie industry, have almost completely converted to digital. In fact, as it was recently noted that a major motion picture was filmed in 70mm film, the announcement was also made that a number of movie theaters were being 'converted' to once again show films:
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Quen...eaters-Small-Fortune-70mm-Upgrades-95517.html
The same article also says:
97 percent isn't digital making inroads against film in movie theaters. It's a rout. As in game over.
I used to read the annual CIPA reports on the photographic industry. It used to report annually on silver-based film sales. I can't recall which year it was, maybe 2007 or 2008, but they finally stopped reporting on sales of film, because they had utterly fallen off a cliff. There was no more consumer mass-market to report on. Again, game over.
What remains is a niche.
I happen to love film. In fact, I've just fired up my film use again, after a number of years of disuse. I anticipate that I'll be shooting B&W, and I anticipate that B&W will be available for a long time to come; but it will be costing me more, and it will be available with fewer choices.
That's OK. Film is only mostly dead - as a mass market consumer product. It remains alive for those few who enjoy it, and we should enjoy it for as long as we can.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
Not quite. Kodak Alaris is the company owned by the UK Pension fund and is the "Kodak" that has the rights to all the current stills films (Tri-X, Portra, etc.) which are manufactured in Rochester and other sites around the world. The film business of Eastman Kodak (the 'other' Kodak) is in the manufacture and sale of motion picture film and the manufacture (though not sale) of stills film.
BLKRCAT
75% Film
I buy fresh kodak as much as I can. Hell I just loaded my M4 with some last run ektachrome before they killed that off a few years ago. Gonna burn through my E6 stash while its still around.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
Maybe "de Beukelaer" wants to sell their stock more quickly over the European seller points then .....
Last price list update from Ilford I had from August 2014, so that 2013 story is not true. Pemberstone = Pinokkio????
Are you saying that the post from "Harman Tech Service" on APUG is fake or incorrect? If so, do you know this for a fact – i.e. is your information about impending price rises direct from Harman rather than one of the distributors?
J enea
Established
my 2 cents...
fuji raised or will raise prices to keep film margins at a break even or slightly better level. they want to stay in the film business even though its a very small percent of their sales. if they can break even they will produce film. If they wanted to get out, they would have done it already
kodak film is in trouble, because the brand name is in trouble. bad corporate image is going to eventually be the end of them. like fuji, they will continue to produce film but at a profit. it will help them offset other major bad decisions. they are helped out by Hollywood, not us, the film camera shooters. we are are blip on their P/L sheet
Ilford, at least the new ilford will continue to raise prices aggressively until the new owners/investors can get their target cash flow number. knowing many successful VC's and private equity head guys, I saw this coming. prices will go up and up and then they will claim that they can't survive their current debt load, or whatever excuse they decide to give out, abn then we will find out their real motivation behind the buyout.
Foma/Adox/Rollei/Agfa will be the voice of reason in pricing. they will follw the big 3 and see where things go. hopefully they can be the ones who show the other 3 that supplying the film users is about being there, not the need of only making a buck.
call me harsh, but thats the way I see it. I hope I am proven wrong and will be happy to admit I was wrong. but for me the ilford sell out to corporate owner who only cares about return on investment ( that is how i view all the wall street types, having been there for 20+ years) was the sign of doom for me. It will take a few more years, but again, I hope Im wrong.
sorry for the negative post
fuji raised or will raise prices to keep film margins at a break even or slightly better level. they want to stay in the film business even though its a very small percent of their sales. if they can break even they will produce film. If they wanted to get out, they would have done it already
kodak film is in trouble, because the brand name is in trouble. bad corporate image is going to eventually be the end of them. like fuji, they will continue to produce film but at a profit. it will help them offset other major bad decisions. they are helped out by Hollywood, not us, the film camera shooters. we are are blip on their P/L sheet
Ilford, at least the new ilford will continue to raise prices aggressively until the new owners/investors can get their target cash flow number. knowing many successful VC's and private equity head guys, I saw this coming. prices will go up and up and then they will claim that they can't survive their current debt load, or whatever excuse they decide to give out, abn then we will find out their real motivation behind the buyout.
Foma/Adox/Rollei/Agfa will be the voice of reason in pricing. they will follw the big 3 and see where things go. hopefully they can be the ones who show the other 3 that supplying the film users is about being there, not the need of only making a buck.
call me harsh, but thats the way I see it. I hope I am proven wrong and will be happy to admit I was wrong. but for me the ilford sell out to corporate owner who only cares about return on investment ( that is how i view all the wall street types, having been there for 20+ years) was the sign of doom for me. It will take a few more years, but again, I hope Im wrong.
sorry for the negative post
Fotohuis
Well-known
It is not a negative post: It IS how it IS now. So my best bet is on FOMA, Adox, Agfa Gevaert (Rollei) and Ferrania too. Maybe Bergger with some small new production too.
Having a company where investors are waiting for their profit won't be possible in this small market anymore. However I own some FOMA S.R.O shares.
Having a company where investors are waiting for their profit won't be possible in this small market anymore. However I own some FOMA S.R.O shares.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Fuji increases the price of film. RFF must be one of the few internet fora where this announcement immediately leads to in-depth analysis and conclusions by ''armchair CEO's'' on the immediate death of Fuji and film. My advice is to take a deep breath and carry on. Cheers, P
miha
Established
Can you be more specific about this small new production? For now their papers are made by Harman, chemistry by Moersch and films by ORWO and probably InovisCoat - this is all good, but do they plan their own production? Even better I say.
mani
Well-known
Golly a lot of 'experts' in this thread - all with breathtaking insight into the current state of the film market. Most of them extrapolating from a datapoint of... one.
miha
Established
Are you by any chance pointing at me?
bluesun267
Well-known
We all want what we want and dislike having it taken away. This is a healthy discussion and a subject worthy of our attention/speculation/musing/insanity/passion etc.
mani
Well-known
I actually wasn't - though maybe if I re-read the thread and find you doing some armchair expertise in the style of 80% of the other contributors, I'll change my mind.
Unbelievable how many people can draw (negative) conclusions about the state of the world film market on the basis of some absurdly flimsy personal observation.
miha
Established
Good.
(why do I need to type 10 characters to be able to post?)
(why do I need to type 10 characters to be able to post?)