G1: Every photo is turned 10 degr. counter-clockwise

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I just got my slides back from Dwayne's. Every single one of the 72 pics I took with my G1 are two degrees tilted counter-clockwise. Alignment issue? Or developing issue?

I am assuming the former.

 

[Monte920]

I don't think this is alignment issue. In order for the film to wind from frame No. 1 through No.36 or 37, the film strip must travel horizontally without tilting. Thus, the tilting issues occasionally heard from DSLRs are almost unlikely to occur in film cameras. Can this be tilting when mounting the slides?

 

[Matthew Allen]

I don't think this is alignment issue. In order for the film to wind from frame No. 1 through No.36 or 37, the film strip must travel horizontally without tilting. Thus, the tilting issues occasionally heard from DSLRs are almost unlikely to occur in film cameras. Can this be tilting when mounting the slides?

The tilting issues that I know of with DSLRs are caused by viewfinder alignment issues not sensor alignment so in theory any camera including the G1 could suffer similarly.

To check for this you should compare photos with the camera (and thus the film) held level and checked with a spirit level to photos with the camera leveled according to the viewfinder image.

Matthew

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

I will tear apart a slide or two that didn't work and see if they were badly mounted. Dwayne's mounted my Canonet/Velvia slides perfectly--this is why I suspect the G1. I'll also inspect the negs from my last neg-film roll on the camera.

I'll also try the straight-line trick you mentioned...

 

[Monte920]

The tilting issues that I know of with DSLRs are caused by viewfinder alignment issues not sensor alignment so in theory any camera including the G1 could suffer similarly.

Matthew

It is easier to imagine the alignment problem of the viewfinder for SLR machines, due to the structure of the pentaprism.

But for RF viewfinders? Alignment problem may be "theoretically" possible, though I've never heard of. The original post said it was off by 10 degrees. That was HUGE!!! A normal person should have immediately noticed the tilting by looking through the viewfinder if it really tilted this much. This type of scenerio, which I believe, is highly unlikely.

 

[uhligfd]

Something is wrong here conceptually:

I assume the film runs parallel to the bottom/top of the camera. I see no alternative to that. If you agree, and i hope everyone does, then a horizontally leveled camera will give a horizontally level picture.

So there is an easy check that the viewfinder is not somehow crooked: look through it and verify that the viewed pic is also level when the camera body is. Small variations are possible (<= 1-2 degrees).

But 10 degrees? This must be an operator error, tilting camera to one side makes tilted pics.

Remedy: become conscious to the tilt and avoid it if you do not like the results.

 

[Matthew Allen]

It is easier to imagine the alignment problem of the viewfinder for SLR machines, due to the structure of the pentaprism.

But for RF viewfinders? Alignment problem may be "theoretically" possible, though I've never heard of. The original post said it was off by 10 degrees. That was HUGE!!! A normal person should have immediately noticed the tilting by looking through the viewfinder if it really tilted this much. This type of scenerio, which I believe, is highly unlikely.

That's a good point. It's hard to see how that big a fault could go unnoticed. Does the G1 have framelines? Could they be off? Or maybe it's a combination of several minor factors adding up to a significant error.

Matthew

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

Just to let you know...I wildly exaggerated the amount of tilt. It's actually like TWO degrees, once I went to adjust the scans. Sorry about that! I'm going to correct the original post and title.

I'd be inclined to believe I'm making a mistake here, but only the G1 sildes are exhibiting the problem--not the Canonet slides. And it's EVERY SINGLE ONE, tilted the SAME AMOUNT. My immediate assumption was in fact that the rangefinder itself is tilted. There are no framelines per se in the G1, but the field of view snaps to the correct size depending on what lend you have attached. And when I looked back at the negs to a roll of XP2 that I shot last month, indeed, everything is tilted. I blamed myself at the time and so went WAY out of my way to get everything STRAIGHT this time around.

I just shot a roll with a different lens--the 90mm--and I'll see if these pics exhibit the problem, too.

 

[Matthew Allen]

If it's only 2 degress then the viewfinder explanation seems reasonable. Unfortunately if that is the problem then it's unlikely you'd be able to fix it since it would probably be a built-in error.

Matthew

 

[mfletch]

Pardon the OT question, but how long is the turn around time on your slides with Dwayne's?

 

[myoptic3]

It's funny you mentioned this, because the last 2 G1's that I owned had small problems in the viewfinders. The green illuminated shutter speed readout in the finders were tilted about the 10 degrees you mentioned. It made it difficult to know what I should be lining up in my shot. I never solved it, and just learned to compensate when I held the camera. I also took more time when framing my shots. The problem is compounded by the fact that the G cameras have such small, squinty viewfinders. If it were me I would buy a cheap roll of film and shoot it w/ the camera on a level table top or tripod and see how the pics looked. Or set a small level on the bottom or top of the camera and aim it at something I had verified was level and see if it looked level in the viewfinder.

The other problem area could be that the little moveable frames that move around for your focus could be getting off in their alignment. I see no easy way to fix that, so I would look at making sure the camera does indeed see things level and go from there.

 

[uhligfd]

Cezanne did it! You are in good company ...

Cezanne did it! You are in good company ...

Just another thought: Cezanne did hundreds of landscapes, Mont Saint Victoire, etc etc. If you are in a museum with a good Cezanne collection, look at his landscapes in detail: I regularly find a majority of them (80 or 70%) tilted up on the right with building leaning slightly to the left. I have not measured the angle, maybe 1-3 degrees. So if you are doing this all by yourself, you are not alone and your pics of landscapes might make it into museums soon and stay there for posterity.

I know that all viewfinders have lots of distortion, they also cut off a good bit of what gets on film. The Gs are of the same breed here as SLRs and DSLRs. With all the warts and barrel distortion ....

Let us not be too anal about the perfect horizon line, I would say, from our famous painter's example!

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

Yeah I may just learn to compensate. Also, I got thinking about this, when I was shooting with the DP1 today, along with a Voigtlander viewfinder...I realized that, because the Voigtlander VF is larger and on a different place on the camera than the G1, I hold it differently, and tilt my head differently. And I wondered if maybe for every camera I own, which is like five, that maybe I use it with some ergonomic quirk that causes the images to come out a certain way. And with the G1, I am inadvertently tilting the camera just that much every time I press the shutter button.

That Cezanne thing is bizarre and fascinating...

 

[Ducky]

because the Voigtlander VF is larger and on a different place on the camera than the G1, I hold it differently, and tilt my head differently. And I wondered if maybe for every camera I own, which is like five, that maybe I use it with some ergonomic quirk that causes the images to come out a certain way. And with the G1, I am inadvertently tilting the camera just that much every time I press the shutter button.quote]

You may have the answer. I have noticed a tendancy to get tilted shots with some of my larger cameras but just never put it together. Some testing is called for.
Thanks.

 

[michaelging]

If I send my film to Dwaynes on a friday, I usually get it back the following friday or sat. They send you a email when its shipped. I also always have a CD burned , and they ask for extra time to do that. I am very happy with the job they do.

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

OK, I believe I've got it now. The viewfinder is indeed misaligned. I didn't even have to take a picture to see it. I have this flat counter here with a splashguard behind it....I laid a ruler along the back edge and set up the G1 pointing at it, first with the 28mm and then the 90mm lens. Peering through, it's obvious that there is a 2-degree clockwise tilt in the field of view.

So OK...is there anybody who can fix this? Or is there a G1 service manual online somewhere? Ultimately I don't mind just getting used to it, but it would be great to have it perfect.

 

[myoptic3]

2 degrees is far from 10 degrees. I wouldn't worry about it, and either compensate when you shoot, or straighten it out in Photoshop later. For slides you are just screwed. It is probably annoying though. The comment about Cezanne is interesting, but not really applicable to photography. In painting you rarely want things exactly straight because they look artificial and static, and in a painting you can and will adjust other parts of the composition to balance together, something you can't do in a photograph where you are basically at the mercy of what is in front of the lens. Depth and perspective are generally different in a painting as well, as photographs flatten things out. We are just so habitually used to seeing it that it doesn't register anymore w/ our brain.

There are at least two free G1 owners manuals online, but I know of no service manuals. This sort of thing could be expensive to send out to have done, and I am not sure who you would send it to anyway. I wonder if it is just the mount to the viewfinder that has shifted (the external part that you look through). You might see if it is possible to firmly but gently twist it into alignment. If it is actually the movable framing lines inside the viewfinder you better just leave it be.

 

[Issy]

"nikondave" sells a photocopy of the G1 service manual on ebay for US$40.

I was going to point you to some images I had of a G1 with the top removed to discourage you, but it looks like the latest update stripped out all the images in the old thread.... jees.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3059

Bill

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

2 degrees is far from 10 degrees.

Yes, I tried to edit that--it was 2 degrees all along. the thread title wouldn't change...

 

[squirrel$$$bandit]

You might see if it is possible to firmly but gently twist it into alignment. If it is actually the movable framing lines inside the viewfinder you better just leave it be.

You know what? I just tried this and it basically worked. it's maybe half a degree off now at best--not bad at all!