G11 and S90

I use black gaffers tape on the front grip area and a little piece on the back where my thumb normally resides. This improves the grip a lot, but it still feels a bit insecure holding such a small camera in one hand. I'm still thinking of getting the Franiek grip.
 
Harry Lime said:
I think the only viable compact out there is the Ricoh GRD series (GRD III), simply because it is the only one of the bunch that has the ergonomics and feature set of a serious photographic tool. To be specific it is the only camera of the group that has extensive controls for scale focusing, which is the make or break feature in my book.

Take the LX3 / Dlux-4 for instance. Great image quality, great lens, compact size.

But you can't set the zoom to a specific focal length (24,28,35,50,60mm),
which makes it impossible to use external viewfinders, except at the widest and longest range of the zoom.

The zoom rocker is quite sensitive, making it difficult to adjust framing.

Also the camera shuts itself off after a set period of time, thus resetting where you had set the zoom.

The screen has a certain amount of lag, so it is no good for decisive moment shots. That's why these cameras need a bright-line finders or good optical viewfinder. Of course you can't see what the AF is aiming at with the brightline finder, which brings us to the next point.

Prefocusing at a specific distance is very limited. After 2 meters the focus indicator jumps to infinity. This makes scale focusing very difficult or impossible, limiting the usefulness of the camera, when it comes to making action shots.

The aperture / shutter speed controls are handled by a single, tiny joystick. It works well if you are not in a hurry, but otherwise forget it.

I spent about a week with the LX3 and it's the best digital P&S I've ever used, if all you wanted to do was take pictures of static subjects, the family standing in front of landmarks on vacation etc.

Yes, people have made some great street shots with this camera, but it is a little something of a crap shoot. You never feel like you have instant control and a certain amount of luck is needed to make anything but a static shot.

I have similar feelings about the G10.

Again, the scale focusing options are limited. I don't think you can set the zoom to a specific focal length. At least it has an optical viewfinder, but it's coverage is 77%, which makes it difficult to accurately compose a shot. Like all LCD screens and EVF there is a certain amount of lag, making it difficult to make shots, where split second timing is vital.

The Sigma DP2 also seems to get the scale focusing part right, but by most accounts it is quite quirky in many other areas. I've heard nothing but bad things about the AF system and apparently the screen is mediocre at best. The GUI is improved from the DP1, but still something of a mess.


The Oly EP-1 has many of the same problems as the other cameras. Again the scale focusing setup is not as good as that of the Ricoh and the LCD display is sluggish.


The Ricoh GR-D series (now in it's 3rd incarnation) on the other hand was designed for serious photographers.

For starters it has extensive options for scale focusing, including a very clever DOF display. Very nicely done.

Because it uses a fast prime lens you only need one bright-line finder. Obviously you still don't get the AF indicator with the bright-line finder, but the scale focusing modes are so sophisticated that with the extra DOF of the reduced size sensor it's a totally useable setup.

Aperture and shutter speed are on dials, like a DSLR.

The list goes on and on. I highly recommend downloading the manual for the GRD III and examining it's feature set.

The biggest problem with the GRD III is price and sensor size.

With the optical viewfinder you're looking at a lot of money (close to $1000?) for a small sensor camera. That's a lot of cash. You can get a low end DSLR or M4/3 for that money.

Above 400 asa it falls behind M4/3 and any upcoming APS-C camera in this category.

Ricoh also dropped the teleconverter (28mm -> 40mm), but it may resurface.


Scale focusing really is the Achilles heel of almost all of these cameras.

Think of the old LTM bodies. These were very basic cameras and in many ways similar to these digital compacts. Leica got a specific set of features right that made them viable tools for a certain type of shooting.

- Full control over scale focusing in light of the absence of a combined RF or mirror box etc.
- Good brightline viewfinders for realtime, reasonably accurate framing.
- Fast access to shutter and aperture controls
- Crisp shutter release

The EVF or LCD has too much lag for work where timing is critical, but to compensate for that you need to use an external finder. But if you don't have extensive control over scale focusing you are out of luck, because you can't use the AF with the external finder.

I hope Panasonic figured this out with the upcoming GF1 and Oly with their more advanced M4/3 model. They really need to take a look at just how right Ricoh got the interface and feature set on their GRD series.

Ultimately what we need is a digital Leica CL. Or a cheaper Leica M8... Compact cameras with real viewfinders. EVF and LCD is not going to cut it. The shutter release on many of these cameras is quite crisp, but that's a mute point if the LCD display has a 1/8th of a second or worse lag time. I would love a M4/3 camera with the spinning mirror viewfinder from the analog PEN.

But don't hold your breath. According to the fanboys optical viewfinders are for geezers and therefore we're going to be stuck with sluggish LCD and EVF finders for a long time. As is often the case in the age of digital photography, the serious shooters are at the mercy of the hordes of amateurs and weekend warriors.
Click to expand...


Harry, Thanks for the HCB and Chim links..

If the optical finders in these cameras were better, the LCD time could be held to a minimum, conserving battery time. If the buffer size was increased, the shutter lag would be less a problem. These are small changes in the evolutuion of what might become a form factor for working photographers. Nikon has a new, non mirror box, camera in the works that will mate to a series of lenses. I think this type of digital camera will gain usage as the necessary functions are improved.
 
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Harry Lime said:
Do you remember this guy?
;-)
Click to expand...

Ol' Ron's photo of Jackie crossing the street, has become an American Icon.. The chapo is a nice touch.. don't ya think. I guess Brando got the head gear installed on Ron after a previous portrait setting.
 
Response to Bill Pierce: Would Cartier-Bresson et al of the future...

Response to Bill Pierce: Would Cartier-Bresson et al of the future...

" Are the just introduced Canon G11 and S90 competition to the Leica M8 in terms of a small, carry-with-me compact for street photography, e.t.c.?

... Will the Bressons, Haas, Erwitts and Smiths of the near future be using small sensor digitals? Will YOU be using these cameras?

This is an important question, and I hope you will chime in with your thoughts. "

Bill


Hello, Although this question was posted a while ago, I'm just a recent member of RFF, so putting my 2 cents in now.

Great question - something I've been wrestling with for a few years, and discuss with other photographers. Fortunately over the last few years compact cameras have been improving steadily too. I'm a long time Leica M user because they are small, discreet, and allow me to compose & shoot very quickly. (I don't think this is news to readers of RFF)

To answer your question in a way: YES in my opinion there is no doubt Cartier-Bresson et al would definitely try to use small sensor digitals, and I also know that a photographer will use whatever is available and find a way to make it work. I use a small sensor digital and just find a way to work around some of the clunkiness of having to go to menus more often than I would like.

I set focus manually to a pre-set distance, so I can be ready (the same thing I do with the Leica) - but now I have to go to a menu, same for changing ISO - a lot is possible to do with current compacts, it's just a bit slower to make/change settings, so I live with it.

My thoughts: I would like to have a decent viewfinder, I actually do compose with it, and 80% is a bit too far off for me personally, and strangely, I find cameras to be too light - I'm surprised at the camera shake I get. I know the latest cameras do have steadying of some sort, I'm curious if that slows things down for a moment between squeezing the shutter and actual exposure.

- I won't make this response any longer, suffice to say, personally, I've carried Leicas around everywhere for years, so I'm fine with any camera that goes up to that size & weight if I can be just as fast (I know there is an M9 - but my name's not Rockefeller!) I will say that the current really small compacts (S90 etc.) are quite amazing for what they are.

Thanks
Sam
 
No not for me at least. I own the G11 and like it. Its a fun camera with lots of bells and whistles that produces excellent jpg and RAW images. But it is no match for the M8. Certainly this is true in the same sense that (say) a Toyota is no match for a Mercedes Benz. And its also true in that its a small sensor camera with a fixed lens. No chance to try other lenses and virtually infinite depth of field in most instances. And its viewfinder is pretty awful. It is tiny, capturing only 77% of the image and what it does capture often bears little resemblance to what the sensor captures due to parallax issues. Having said this it does produce nice images and has its place in my camera bag for those days when taking an M8 is just not an option.
 
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I'm astonished nobody has yet mentioned the new Sony NEX 3/5. There are adapters for that camera system's bayonet to M-type lenses, so this camera could be the answer to the wishes and dreams of many of us over here on the RFF.

Can anybody offer some real hands-on experience with this camera?

I once briefly had the camera in my hands in one of the large electronics supermarkets in Germany: I liked the camera's short shutter lag (after focusing), but I was negatively surprised about the camera's loud, whirring shutter noise.

Any info on usability, or does this camera only cater to menu maniacs? How about support for manual focussing? What about IQ?
 
My brother has a NEX 5, and has started using a Nokton 35mm on it. I find usability good, better than his old GF-1. Focusing the M lens is easy enough, even without zooming.

You have delve into menus for ISO etc. but aperture can be assigned to the wheel on the back (assuming you're using a Sony lens, not M).

Image quality is par for the course for an APS sensor I think, high ISO especially good.

It's nice, small, but no EVF option, so I'd probably go for the Lumix G2 instead I think.
 
At this point in time, I'm wondering why someone would buy a G11 or a forthcoming G12 (with the same sized sensor) when you can get something like an EP1 or the EPL1 for roughly the same price with a much bigger sensor and similar size. It seems like sometime soon Canon (and Nikon) are going to have to offer bigger sensors in smaller, non SLR bodies to compete in this market.

I can see the appeal of a single non-interchangeable lens but the compromises inherent in the small sensors in these things really undercut their appeal to the prosumer market they seem to be targeting, particularly at the $500 price point.
 
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