Getting Caught

[bmattock]

Theres a major question of ethics that runs through us as photographers.

There are plenty of people who confuse personal ethics with law.

We all know how annoying it is to miss a shot because of grumpy people, but we also need to respect people's privacy.

According to whom?

It is, no doubt, "creepy" to grab a shot of somebody without looking.

I don't agree.

Unless I'm sure it will produce an extremely provoctive image, I probably wouldn't take a picture of someone having a terrible day or someone that looks a bit off their rocker. That could end up pretty badly.

Those are personal choices, and of course I respect your right to make them. The problem, from my point of view, comes when people either a) come to the erroneous conclusion that their own point of view is, in fact, the law; or b) come to the equally erroneous conclusion that their own point of view is shared by everyone and therefore should be universally adhered to voluntarily.

In most parts of the USA, for the moment, it is still legal to photograph in public, without the consent of the people or things you are photographing. Unless and until that changes, that is my guiding light. If I decide, like you, not to take a photo because I feel a person might react very badly, or I just don't feel like doing something that obviously is going to upset them, that's my choice - and I don't mind making that choice from time to time. But I refuse to relinquish, ameliorate, water-down, or otherwise capitulate the rights of all photographers because I make a personal decision not to take a particular photograph.

By the same token, if I decide to take a photograph, I'm going to take it. I don't care who thinks it is rude, I don't care who thinks I am unethical, and it does not bother me in the least if it gets up people's sleeves. I live within the rule of law, but my ethics are my own, and I reject anyone's attempts to make me behave as they wish I would.

 

[russianRF]

I agree with you BMattock. Some people are just too self-important; they want to control their image for the sake of controlling it. Also, parts/people in America tend to have an anti-intellectual stance; that's not OUR fault as photographers and we shouldn't capitulate to people just because they don't understand the difference between taking creepy up-skirt snaps versus artistic street photography.

I think photographers are generally plenty polite, and I agree we should be in a default "polite" mode. But there's a difference between being polite and allowing closed-minded people to walk all over you...

 

[Hopscotch]

There are plenty of people who confuse personal ethics with law.

Sucks for them, so what? I said there is a major issue with ethics and i meant ethics I then went on to support my argument with some things about HCB.

According to whom?

According to the aforementioned "ethics". If you need clarification; "ethics" closely means "moral principles". Maybe you have a heart of rock, but some of us like our privacy and should respect others' privacy

I don't agree.

Good for you. Have a medal. Maybe it will soften up that heart of rock I mentioned above.

Those are personal choices, and of course I respect your right to make them. The problem, from my point of view, comes when people either a) come to the erroneous conclusion that their own point of view is, in fact, the law; or b) come to the equally erroneous conclusion that their own point of view is shared by everyone and therefore should be universally adhered to voluntarily.

In most parts of the USA, for the moment, it is still legal to photograph in public, without the consent of the people or things you are photographing. Unless and until that changes, that is my guiding light. If I decide, like you, not to take a photo because I feel a person might react very badly, or I just don't feel like doing something that obviously is going to upset them, that's my choice - and I don't mind making that choice from time to time. But I refuse to relinquish, ameliorate, water-down, or otherwise capitulate the rights of all photographers because I make a personal decision not to take a particular photograph.

By the same token, if I decide to take a photograph, I'm going to take it. I don't care who thinks it is rude, I don't care who thinks I am unethical, and it does not bother me in the least if it gets up people's sleeves. I live within the rule of law, but my ethics are my own, and I reject anyone's attempts to make me behave as they wish I would.

And? I didn't really see anything of note here. You just said that you take pictures of what you want. So we come to the conclusion that you have little respect for others? This is a strawman argument that I'm really not connecting with. You seem to be upset that I simply said that people, from what i've noticed generally are not into getting their picture taken when they don't want to- especially by someone they don't know. Maybe you have a personality as strong as Bruice Gilden- he can get away with it because that him. I don't- I couldn't get away with that.


I may be new here, Bmattock, but I'm not going to be pushed around for no reason by someone just because they have 7000 posts. I saw your post as being belittling, and overall unesccarily harsh. I don't really care if that wasn't your intention, because I've noticed that this type of thing is pretty common with you. Maybe you should lighten up.

 

[bmattock]

I think photographers are generally plenty polite, and I agree we should be in a default "polite" mode. But there's a difference between being polite and allowing closed-minded people to walk all over you...

In my case, it is more a reaction to a lifetime of seeing civil liberties willingly given away by citizens who don't value them. It could be that they give them up in exchange for a sense of safety, or they give them up so that they can feel we are more polite or ethical as a society, or that that they give them up to defeat a foe they have an idealogical objection to, but so many seem in such a rush to turn in their rights.

I don't like knowing that the KKK has a rally on the steps of the capitol building; but if I don't tolerate it, my own rights to free speech won't be tolerated. I don't like paparazzi in general, but if they don't have the right to take photographs in public, then neither do I. I don't like religions that send people to knock on my door and preach to me or tell me I'm going to hell, but if I don't tolerate their attempts to spread the word about their faith, then mine might someday be outlawed.

I take photos in public. I obey the law. A lot of people think I'm being rude, or being unethical, or they actually think I'm breaking the law, and I'm sorry about that. I know it makes them mad that I do this, but I don't do it to make anyone mad. I do what I do - and in the process, I defend the rights of photographers to continue to photograph in public.

Those rights are being eroded everywhere as public conceptions of what level of privacy should be permitted in public change. And while I agree with the right of local communities to set their own standards, the right to free speech - and public photography is that - supersedes local standards, as it should.

In the USA, there is no right to privacy for a person in public. If they expect it, they are mistaken. I don't know how else to say it.

 

[Gumby]

I may be new here, Bmattock, but I'm not going to be pushed around for no reason by someone just because they have 7000 posts. I saw your post as being belittling, and overall unesccarily harsh. I don't really care if that wasn't your intention, because I've noticed that this type of thing is pretty common with you. Maybe you should lighten up.

Welcome to RFF, Hopscotch!

 

[bmattock]

Sucks for them, so what? I said there is a major issue with ethics and i meant ethics I then went on to support my argument with some things about HCB.

I think you are confusing the meaning of the term 'ethics' with 'morals'.

According to the aforementioned "ethics". If you need clarification; "ethics" closely means "moral principles". Maybe you have a heart of rock, but some of us like our privacy and should respect others' privacy

I like my privacy. I know I have no right to expect privacy when I am in public. That means that when I am in my house, a person peeping in the window is invading my legal right to privacy. When I stand on my front porch, that same person looking at me is not infringing on any rights I have.

I do respect other's privacy - the privacy they have a right to expect.

Good for you. Have a medal. Maybe it will soften up that heart of rock I mentioned above.

Perhaps it takes a heart of rock to see the bigger picture, that of the slow erosion of civil liberties in the name of politeness.

And? I didn't really see anything of note here. You just said that you take pictures of what you want. So we come to the conclusion that you have little respect for others?

It depends entirely on how you phrase it. If I say I like grape jelly and you say that I should like strawberry, and I go ahead and make my sandwich with grape, do I have little respect for your opinion? Or did I just decide to do what I wanted to do?

This is a strawman argument that I'm really not connecting with. You seem to be upset that I simply said that people, from what i've noticed generally are not into getting their picture taken when they don't want to- especially by someone they don't know. Maybe you have a personality as strong as Bruice Gilden- he can get away with it because that him. I don't- I couldn't get away with that.

I'm sorry, those aren't even sentences, so I can't respond - I don't know what you mean.

I may be new here, Bmattock, but I'm not going to be pushed around for no reason by someone just because they have 7000 posts. I saw your post as being belittling, and overall unesccarily harsh. I don't really care if that wasn't your intention, because I've noticed that this type of thing is pretty common with you. Maybe you should lighten up.

I have no intent to belittle. I've called you no names, I've not insulted you. I addressed your points directly - if that is belittling, I'm sorry.

I do not know how "I don't agree with you and here's why" is overly harsh.

 

[Hopscotch]

I think you are confusing the meaning of the term 'ethics' with 'morals'.

nah,

Ethics; the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc

Morals; of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical:


I said what I meant.

I like my privacy. I know I have no right to expect privacy when I am in public. That means that when I am in my house, a person peeping in the window is invading my legal right to privacy. When I stand on my front porch, that same person looking at me is not infringing on any rights I have.

My parents always taught me "it's rude to stare". People get uneasy when you stare at them, and makes them even more uneasy when you hold a camera up. Maybe i'm the only person that was ever taught this, but I'm pretty sure it rings true in most cases.

Perhaps it takes a heart of rock to see the bigger picture, that of the slow erosion of civil liberties in the name of politeness.

You cannot really believe this, can you?
If you compare 2008 (2009!) to the '40s we are much less gentlemanly. Our civil liberties have been boosted way up. Look- gays can marry in California, I can swear in public without being crossed.. etc etc etc. We're becoming more and more rude as time goes on. Politeness is something that is slowly eroding.

It depends entirely on how you phrase it. If I say I like grape jelly and you say that I should like strawberry, and I go ahead and make my sandwich with grape, do I have little respect for your opinion? Or did I just decide to do what I wanted to do?

I don't really understand this. Again, straw man argument. (EDIT:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

I'm sorry, those aren't even sentences, so I can't respond - I don't know what you mean.

Still makes perfect sense to me. The fact that you took the time to call to this discussion my writing, which really has nothing to do with the discussion we're having, really illuminates the next quote well. See below.

I have no intent to belittle. I've called you no names, I've not insulted you. I addressed your points directly - if that is belittling, I'm sorry.

I do not know how "I don't agree with you and here's why" is overly harsh.

No, it was the way you went about it.
Above you said that you were upset that we were losing freedom in the name of politeness. So have you completely thrown all of your politeness out the door? this is a discussion forum for something we all love- photography- and you're here throwin punches trying to rip posts apart. Why don't you chill out.

I don't want to take up anymore of this thread with this argument. I realize that there's two sides to every coin. If you want to continue this, send me a PM- nobody wants to see this.

 

[bmattock]

I have been advised that I have nothing more to say on the issue. Apparently, you win.

 

[Ken Ford]

Pixtu, you have an unending store of pictures depicting men wearing cookie tins on their head. I'm impressed!

😉

 

[Michael P.]

I caught these two guys a little late, they had passed the spot before I could get my camera ready.

A cool shot nonetheless.

 

[Pherdinand]

If you compare 2008 (2009!) to the '40s we are much less gentlemanly. Our civil liberties have been boosted way up. Look- gays can marry in California, I can swear in public without being crossed.. etc etc etc. We're becoming more and more rude as time goes on. Politeness is something that is slowly eroding.

LOL
what does all this have to do with gays getting married in California?

This is so freakin ridiculous, is it part of the new years eve cabaret? Are you payed by Stephen G to entertain us? 🙂

Easy up people, have some champagne or gluhwein or get married or something

 

[Aziz]

To reiterate what everybody else has said, be confident in yourself. Start with events or protests where people expect to get their photo taken.
Use your gut instinct as well (don't photograph drug-dealers, sketchy looking characters, etc.)
And finally, smile. Smiling helps put others at ease.

 

[rogue_designer]

Unless you have a creepy smile.

 

[MIkhail]

Do not hide.

Do not hide.

I don't know if it was mentioned already... I shoot with pretty large DSLR most of the time, and I like to approach people very close. So what I do- I try to hang around a bit with my camera and let people get used to it, pretend I shoot some buildings nearby etc. Then I compose the shot with people being off-center and shoot. If during this time I see that person is expressing some dissatisfaction, I keep holding the camera to my face, turn just a bit away and when lower my camera I keep looking at something, not at the person at all. So the impression I try to make- I was photographing something else...
Sometimes I also shoot with Olympus XA - but use the same technics. I find that it is actually easier for me to shoot with large camera and lens - people take me for magazine photograper and accept my presence easier...
I hope this helps..

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/mikesht_photo/_MG_9583.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/mikesht_photo/_MG_9572-1.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/mikesht_photo/_MG_7658.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/mikesht_photo/_MG_3695.jpg