thegman
Veteran
I'd keep an eye out on the classifieds here, I've had a few good experiences, and none bad.
You could also look for M8.2 or Epson R-D1.
You could also look for M8.2 or Epson R-D1.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Go for an M8.2 if you can. What look like surprisingly modest changes make it a significantly nicer camera, at least as far as I am concerned.
M8: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/m8.html
M8.2: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/reviews m8-2.html
Cheers,
R.
mugget
Established
I swear I looked for Classifieds here and didn't see it. 
Will definitely have a look...
I checked out the M8.2, I think the M8 will actually be better for me - likely I'll use the faster 1/8000th shutter speed, I think the black chrome will hold up better than the black pain on the M8.2 as well. As long as it's not one of the first 1,500 or so of the M8 it should be sweet. I know about the issues but I'm not worried, shouldn't affect me really. Mind you the one thing that does interest me in the M8.2 is the more accurate frame lines, but I'm not sure if this is something that is a real deal breaker, or something I would just "get used to" on the M8?
The M8.2 seems harder to find because of the shorter production run as well. But currently an M8 with upgraded M8.2 parts on eBay...
I never knew about the Epson R-D1... quick look on eBay though and it seems like it's even more scarce than any Leica.
Will definitely have a look...
I checked out the M8.2, I think the M8 will actually be better for me - likely I'll use the faster 1/8000th shutter speed, I think the black chrome will hold up better than the black pain on the M8.2 as well. As long as it's not one of the first 1,500 or so of the M8 it should be sweet. I know about the issues but I'm not worried, shouldn't affect me really. Mind you the one thing that does interest me in the M8.2 is the more accurate frame lines, but I'm not sure if this is something that is a real deal breaker, or something I would just "get used to" on the M8?
The M8.2 seems harder to find because of the shorter production run as well. But currently an M8 with upgraded M8.2 parts on eBay...
I never knew about the Epson R-D1... quick look on eBay though and it seems like it's even more scarce than any Leica.
mugget
Established
Okay - I'm back for some more advice, except this time I've thought I'd better ask about lenses, since I realised I was getting a bit carried away looking for cameras and hadn't even considered a lens yet.
Last thing I want is to spend all my money on a great camera and be stuck using a crummy lens.
So I've been reading up and think the Leica 50/1.4 will be a lens that I can't really go wrong with. Great for low light/available light usage, which is what I plan on a fair bit. And I'm used to 50mm range, that's what I used as my 'walkabout' lens on the 1D (would be the same on an M8 with the 1.33x crop sensor). Looks like used prices are something around $1,000? (Well used, but clean glass.) Sounds good to me! (I am only looking at pre-ASPH, mind you...)
I've also heard the Zeiss 50/1.5 is a really good lens as well, and smaller than the Leica. I can't imagine seeing the lens through the viewfinder, but something makes me think it would annoy me every time. How does anyone else deal with that? Or is it not that much of a deal once you've been used to it for a while?
I think I've found my ideal first lens, but I was just wondering if anyone else had any ideas?
Cheers
Last thing I want is to spend all my money on a great camera and be stuck using a crummy lens.
So I've been reading up and think the Leica 50/1.4 will be a lens that I can't really go wrong with. Great for low light/available light usage, which is what I plan on a fair bit. And I'm used to 50mm range, that's what I used as my 'walkabout' lens on the 1D (would be the same on an M8 with the 1.33x crop sensor). Looks like used prices are something around $1,000? (Well used, but clean glass.) Sounds good to me! (I am only looking at pre-ASPH, mind you...)
I've also heard the Zeiss 50/1.5 is a really good lens as well, and smaller than the Leica. I can't imagine seeing the lens through the viewfinder, but something makes me think it would annoy me every time. How does anyone else deal with that? Or is it not that much of a deal once you've been used to it for a while?
I think I've found my ideal first lens, but I was just wondering if anyone else had any ideas?
Cheers
Damaso
Photojournalist
I think the price you mention is for the pre-asph version of the 50, which I have and love. The asph is certainly a sharper lens with fewer aberrations but a lot more money
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_larky
Well-known
To the OP, I moved from dSLR photography into the world of film RF and digital X100 very recently, and I'm not regretting it. I always shot street though, so it wasn't such a leap for me. For people photos, the smaller RF is a much better bet, but you'll have to get used to focus.
My tip, learn how to zone focus and work the hyperfocal. And even though it's hard, trust what the lens scale is telling you.
But most of all, have a great time doing it.
I used to race myself, until I was hit a 2.5ton Volvo. I was a Suzuki boy.
My tip, learn how to zone focus and work the hyperfocal. And even though it's hard, trust what the lens scale is telling you.
But most of all, have a great time doing it.
I used to race myself, until I was hit a 2.5ton Volvo. I was a Suzuki boy.
emasterphoto
Established
Personally, before you get caught up in the romance of the RF and drop a couple grand on a camera type you've never shot before, I'd think first about dropping a $100 or less on a Canonet or someting similar and find out on the cheap whether an RF is for you or not. If so, and it may be, then yeah go into it full-force. If not, then you're out nearly nothing as it'll still be easy to sell off for what you put into.
Myself, I've got a couple film RFs and they're fun and have their places, but I would never give up my D3 to shoot them exclusively; not in a million years. You can only decide that for yourself though, so best to give RFs a fair shot.
Myself, I've got a couple film RFs and they're fun and have their places, but I would never give up my D3 to shoot them exclusively; not in a million years. You can only decide that for yourself though, so best to give RFs a fair shot.
segedi
RFicianado
You can't really go wrong with the zeiss glass. My first 50mm in RF was a planar f/2. You might like it better than a pre-asph or the sonnar.
Finder blockage, for me isn't a big deal but i don't use a nokton or noctilux.
While I agree with being economical as you dive in, I don't recommend a cheap camera - for me it would be like recommending a point and shoot digital to someone that wants to dive in to digital when the experience might not be very good.
Finder blockage, for me isn't a big deal but i don't use a nokton or noctilux.
While I agree with being economical as you dive in, I don't recommend a cheap camera - for me it would be like recommending a point and shoot digital to someone that wants to dive in to digital when the experience might not be very good.
segedi
RFicianado
And the other reason being that I have benefited from the secondhand market of rangefinders
mugget
Established
Yeah I thought about trying a film RF, but I've always been digital so that is really two steps away from what I'm used to.
I'm buying all used so I'm not too worried about if I have to sell it off again. And now hoping that I can get my hands on something by the 25th before I head away on a trip. From no rush, to rush - always the way!
Hey _larky, can you tell me if the X100 viewfinder blanks out at all when taking photos? I read something about that, but nothing conclusive - is that just when using it in EVF mode?
Not good to hear about your crash, definitely gotta be careful on the roads, but sometimes even that isn't enough. I was very close to giving up road riding and keep it on track only.
I'm buying all used so I'm not too worried about if I have to sell it off again. And now hoping that I can get my hands on something by the 25th before I head away on a trip. From no rush, to rush - always the way!
Hey _larky, can you tell me if the X100 viewfinder blanks out at all when taking photos? I read something about that, but nothing conclusive - is that just when using it in EVF mode?
Not good to hear about your crash, definitely gotta be careful on the roads, but sometimes even that isn't enough. I was very close to giving up road riding and keep it on track only.
mugget
Established
Hey segedi, sorry I replied and didn't see your posts there - I had come across the Zeiss 50/2, but I figured I'd go for the f1.4 as it would be much more useful in low light/night settings. But I'll admit I am a bit confused by all the lens options. Previously the only walkabout lens I had was the Canon 50mm f1.8, so I'm sure that any RF lens will blow me away with build and image quality. At least it had better since the Canon Nifty Fifty only costs about $150 new.
But it just looks like there's so much choice... ahwell I'll keep looking.
Maybe this will open up a can of worms... but what do you guys think of Ken Rockwell? I find alot of his reviews, views & info very helpful (but I do take some things he says with a grain of salt). I have one friend who just gets enraged if he reads that site.
But it just looks like there's so much choice... ahwell I'll keep looking.
Maybe this will open up a can of worms... but what do you guys think of Ken Rockwell? I find alot of his reviews, views & info very helpful (but I do take some things he says with a grain of salt). I have one friend who just gets enraged if he reads that site.
emasterphoto
Established
That's cool, you gotta do what you gotta do. From personal experience I thought it wise to point to an alternative point of entry. It's an expensive lesson otherwise if you decide RFs aren't for you in the end.
Segedi: Point well taken, but there is a big functional and experiential difference between a P&S and a DSLR, and a very small one between a decent fixed lens RF and an interchangeable lens model. Plus, cheap and inexpensive are not the same thing.
AndySig
Established
Mugget,
I'm non-partisan about RF and so had no preconceptions. I read a few sites including Mr Rockwell's and I would simply say that my experiences with the ZI and the M6 act more or less as a confirmation of his opinions of them.
If you've never done film but get a RF, I bet you do give film a go. I've had a couple of digital cameras but just can't find any affection for them i.e. they just feel part of the disposable, rapidly past its sell by date digital age. Mechanical film cameras, on the other hand, are a source of delight. That is entirely subjective and it would be interesting to see how someone like you who would effectively be going retro would find them.
I'm non-partisan about RF and so had no preconceptions. I read a few sites including Mr Rockwell's and I would simply say that my experiences with the ZI and the M6 act more or less as a confirmation of his opinions of them.
If you've never done film but get a RF, I bet you do give film a go. I've had a couple of digital cameras but just can't find any affection for them i.e. they just feel part of the disposable, rapidly past its sell by date digital age. Mechanical film cameras, on the other hand, are a source of delight. That is entirely subjective and it would be interesting to see how someone like you who would effectively be going retro would find them.
menos
Veteran
Mugget, welcome to the forum!
Some good advice has already been given and I see, that you narrowed already your choices for starting up with an RF.
I would like to share some thoughts, that might not have been mentioned or might be useful for you.
I have been shooting Nikon DSLRs (and still keep a basic set with select lenses and bodies).
When I found a nice Nikon FM3a, to "try out film", I got complete hooked by BW film and not long after, stumbled by accident over a nice Leica M6 and one lens.
Since then, I have completely changed my preferences towards rangefinders.
I use now mainly a Leica M8.2 and as a second body with another focal length and high speed film for low light a Leica film body.
My preferred lenses are a fast 50mm on the M8.2 and a fast 35mm on the film body.
I shoot mostly, what is commonly call "street photography".
90% of this, I do during the late evening into the deep night, making fast lenses, slow shutter speeds and still the use of film necessary.
Against common preconceptions, I also use Leica RFs for motor sports and moving subjects - you do not have to be afraid of that, although, it needs more getting used to as doing so with a DSLR and long tele.
My longest lens is a 135mm f3.4, which served me very well, shooting at the 2010 Le Mans 24h. For the night, I also used a 90 f2 lens as this is my longest, fastest lens.
Some things, of what I do can be seen on my website or on my flickr site.
Motor sports with long lens:
M8.2 | 135mm wide open @ f3.4
…with short lens:
M8.2 | 35mm
Motor sports with a D3 and 300 f2.8:
…not much difference actually ;-)
Low light shots, where a RF really shines:
"racing with hot food" M8.2 | Noctilux @ ~f1 - f1.4
"married ?" M8.2 | Noctilux
… a shot, I would have felt very uncomfortable, doing with a D3 and 24-70mm, disrupting the rare and precious expression.
M8.2 | Noctilux
… a shot, easily done with any camera, but I feel more confident, doing it with a RF (any RF) - why? Because, the RF viewfinder helped me, to exclude the customers during composition, concentrating just on the chef of this busy grille and because exposure settings and focus are fully manually extremely quickly adjusted with the Leica, opposed to fighting a fully electronic camera.
You really don't have to be afraid of using a RF for certain things, most people do not use them for.
Where RFs shine though is clearly shooting between 28 − 90 mm focal lengths. Especially helpful are indeed the slower shutter speeds possible with a RF when handholding (I shoot exclusively handheld).
But!
RFs are not for everybody - you either completely love it or can't work with it.
I fell in love with it very quickly.
For the case, you might not like it, you should be prepared - only start with a more affordable film RF first or make sure, to try one before committing.
If you are a digital guy, a second hand M8 is unbeatable value.
Don't sweat the 1/8000th shutter speed of the M8 vs. the M8.2 - I never ran into issues, where the one stop shorter shutter would have helped me.
I certainly enjoy the small but nice other benefits form the M8.2.
Essential to me is the discreet shutter mode, where one can delay the shutter cocking motor by holding the shutter release after the taken shot.
This is essential for me and also fit's nicely into a film workflow, disconnecting winding from the exposure and making it a separate operation.
The overall lack of very long lenses with the Leica RF btw is often solved due to the fact, that mostly, you will just get closer.
Good luck!
Some good advice has already been given and I see, that you narrowed already your choices for starting up with an RF.
I would like to share some thoughts, that might not have been mentioned or might be useful for you.
I have been shooting Nikon DSLRs (and still keep a basic set with select lenses and bodies).
When I found a nice Nikon FM3a, to "try out film", I got complete hooked by BW film and not long after, stumbled by accident over a nice Leica M6 and one lens.
Since then, I have completely changed my preferences towards rangefinders.
I use now mainly a Leica M8.2 and as a second body with another focal length and high speed film for low light a Leica film body.
My preferred lenses are a fast 50mm on the M8.2 and a fast 35mm on the film body.
I shoot mostly, what is commonly call "street photography".
90% of this, I do during the late evening into the deep night, making fast lenses, slow shutter speeds and still the use of film necessary.
Against common preconceptions, I also use Leica RFs for motor sports and moving subjects - you do not have to be afraid of that, although, it needs more getting used to as doing so with a DSLR and long tele.
My longest lens is a 135mm f3.4, which served me very well, shooting at the 2010 Le Mans 24h. For the night, I also used a 90 f2 lens as this is my longest, fastest lens.
Some things, of what I do can be seen on my website or on my flickr site.
Motor sports with long lens:
M8.2 | 135mm wide open @ f3.4
…with short lens:
M8.2 | 35mm
Motor sports with a D3 and 300 f2.8:
…not much difference actually ;-)
Low light shots, where a RF really shines:
"racing with hot food" M8.2 | Noctilux @ ~f1 - f1.4
"married ?" M8.2 | Noctilux
… a shot, I would have felt very uncomfortable, doing with a D3 and 24-70mm, disrupting the rare and precious expression.
… a shot, easily done with any camera, but I feel more confident, doing it with a RF (any RF) - why? Because, the RF viewfinder helped me, to exclude the customers during composition, concentrating just on the chef of this busy grille and because exposure settings and focus are fully manually extremely quickly adjusted with the Leica, opposed to fighting a fully electronic camera.
You really don't have to be afraid of using a RF for certain things, most people do not use them for.
Where RFs shine though is clearly shooting between 28 − 90 mm focal lengths. Especially helpful are indeed the slower shutter speeds possible with a RF when handholding (I shoot exclusively handheld).
But!
RFs are not for everybody - you either completely love it or can't work with it.
I fell in love with it very quickly.
For the case, you might not like it, you should be prepared - only start with a more affordable film RF first or make sure, to try one before committing.
If you are a digital guy, a second hand M8 is unbeatable value.
Don't sweat the 1/8000th shutter speed of the M8 vs. the M8.2 - I never ran into issues, where the one stop shorter shutter would have helped me.
I certainly enjoy the small but nice other benefits form the M8.2.
Essential to me is the discreet shutter mode, where one can delay the shutter cocking motor by holding the shutter release after the taken shot.
This is essential for me and also fit's nicely into a film workflow, disconnecting winding from the exposure and making it a separate operation.
The overall lack of very long lenses with the Leica RF btw is often solved due to the fact, that mostly, you will just get closer.
Good luck!
mugget
Established
I'm an all or nothing type of guy. And I'm all in right now. Got a Leica 50/1.4 on the way and just trying to organize payment for a used M8 from KEH (first time international credit card customer, and all that. Plus the time differences don't help - they're just opening for business when I'm falling soundly asleep.)
Hopefully get to try this out within a couple of weeks and will post up my impressions after that. It will surely be interesting! All digital kid... SLR to RF! From 400mm to 50mm!
Hopefully get to try this out within a couple of weeks and will post up my impressions after that. It will surely be interesting! All digital kid... SLR to RF! From 400mm to 50mm!
mugget
Established
Hi menos,
I just posted before I saw yours there. Thanks for taking the time to post - good info there. I was about to say that I will get something like a 90 or 135mm lens and still try some motorsport. But I will just see how I go with the 50/1.4 first up... but yes I found it very interesting that alot of people don't shoot motorsport or that kind of action with an RF. I would do it just out of curiosity... if someone tells me what I can't do, then they're just gonna have to sit back and watch me do it!
Some great shots there! With the motorsport how do you go with focusing? Is there alot of pre-focus involved? Or you have grown so accustomed to using the RF system to be able to focus very quickly?
Overall I get the impression that you definitely choose your location and timing alot more with an RF camera. Definitely not the "spray & pray" type attitude that you see alot of digital SLR users showing at any given major sporting event. But I never got good results shooting that way, my shots were always carefully considered and planned, even at the MotoGP which is where I had the dSLR out the most.
I think I will take to the RF like a duck to water, but that remains to be seen...
In any case there's been some good discussion here. Very helpful and active forum!
I just posted before I saw yours there. Thanks for taking the time to post - good info there. I was about to say that I will get something like a 90 or 135mm lens and still try some motorsport. But I will just see how I go with the 50/1.4 first up... but yes I found it very interesting that alot of people don't shoot motorsport or that kind of action with an RF. I would do it just out of curiosity... if someone tells me what I can't do, then they're just gonna have to sit back and watch me do it!
Some great shots there! With the motorsport how do you go with focusing? Is there alot of pre-focus involved? Or you have grown so accustomed to using the RF system to be able to focus very quickly?
Overall I get the impression that you definitely choose your location and timing alot more with an RF camera. Definitely not the "spray & pray" type attitude that you see alot of digital SLR users showing at any given major sporting event. But I never got good results shooting that way, my shots were always carefully considered and planned, even at the MotoGP which is where I had the dSLR out the most.
I think I will take to the RF like a duck to water, but that remains to be seen...
In any case there's been some good discussion here. Very helpful and active forum!
mugget
Established
Learning
Learning
Well I got the M8 yesterday, just in time to head away on a trip this morning. I had a bit of a play around last night, soon figured out that low light is tricky, especially if you don't have enough light, or blocking light for the framelines/focus area. Haven't used it much at all yet, but I already appreciate the simple layout - to the point and no fuss, no wasted time. I'll post back with sine more impressions as I get used to it... Hopefully going to be able to get to a round of Aussie Superbikes in the coming weeks as well.
Learning
Well I got the M8 yesterday, just in time to head away on a trip this morning. I had a bit of a play around last night, soon figured out that low light is tricky, especially if you don't have enough light, or blocking light for the framelines/focus area. Haven't used it much at all yet, but I already appreciate the simple layout - to the point and no fuss, no wasted time. I'll post back with sine more impressions as I get used to it... Hopefully going to be able to get to a round of Aussie Superbikes in the coming weeks as well.
mugget
Established
1st Impressions for an SLR kiddie
1st Impressions for an SLR kiddie
Well I just thought I'd post back in case anyone was waiting in interest to hear what an all-time SLR guy thinks about a rangefinder.
To put it simply...
I love it.
I definitely think I've gone the right way by staying digital, since that's all I've known previously. The focus method took a little bit to get used to, I think it will still become faster and 2nd nature with more use. The only kind of 'downside' or niggle that I noticed fairly soon was that you need to be very aware of bright light sources since the focus area can become completely blanked out with a bright light. I bought a Shade from LeicaGoodies, so I will give that a go and see how it helps, just hoping that doesn't affect low-light situations to much. Anyone have tips to work around that bright light issue?
Other than that - the 50/1.4 has blown me away! It is just unreal, couldn't be happier with it...
(Only down side is that there's a dent on the filter thread area, so it can't take filters and the lens cap doesn't fit 100%. But I went a bit over budget so saving $1k on the lens was not such a bad thing for me!)
The other thing that has not failed to disappoint me is that it's such a compact camera and lens. Just what I was looking for...
I think I mentioned previously that I'd only really been into photographing motorsports. So I've been trying to focus (haha) alot more on people now. It's strange - but it's true what they say - people just seem to disregard the Leica when you're using it! The only limiting factor was that I'm definitely not used to just walking around people and taking photos of them.
Very glad I went ahead and picked up an M8 as well, almost a bargain (by Leica standards?) and as it turned out waiting for the next in line of the digital M series. M9-P, anyone? Eeerrr... there's some real advancement.
Next up I will look for a 135mm lens - I am still going to try my hand at some motorsports!
Here's a few quick pics:
Ground Fungal by mugget, on Flickr
Fridgebox by mugget, on Flickr
Gixxer 03 by mugget, on Flickr
Gixxer 02 by mugget, on Flickr
And yep - I said I will still do motorsport!
Rangefinder does motorsport! by mugget, on Flickr
If anyone has some rangefinder tips or tricks for a newbie I'd love to hear!
1st Impressions for an SLR kiddie
Well I just thought I'd post back in case anyone was waiting in interest to hear what an all-time SLR guy thinks about a rangefinder.
To put it simply...
I love it.
I definitely think I've gone the right way by staying digital, since that's all I've known previously. The focus method took a little bit to get used to, I think it will still become faster and 2nd nature with more use. The only kind of 'downside' or niggle that I noticed fairly soon was that you need to be very aware of bright light sources since the focus area can become completely blanked out with a bright light. I bought a Shade from LeicaGoodies, so I will give that a go and see how it helps, just hoping that doesn't affect low-light situations to much. Anyone have tips to work around that bright light issue?
Other than that - the 50/1.4 has blown me away! It is just unreal, couldn't be happier with it...
(Only down side is that there's a dent on the filter thread area, so it can't take filters and the lens cap doesn't fit 100%. But I went a bit over budget so saving $1k on the lens was not such a bad thing for me!)
The other thing that has not failed to disappoint me is that it's such a compact camera and lens. Just what I was looking for...
I think I mentioned previously that I'd only really been into photographing motorsports. So I've been trying to focus (haha
) alot more on people now. It's strange - but it's true what they say - people just seem to disregard the Leica when you're using it! The only limiting factor was that I'm definitely not used to just walking around people and taking photos of them. Very glad I went ahead and picked up an M8 as well, almost a bargain (by Leica standards?) and as it turned out waiting for the next in line of the digital M series. M9-P, anyone? Eeerrr... there's some real advancement.
Next up I will look for a 135mm lens - I am still going to try my hand at some motorsports!
Here's a few quick pics:
Ground Fungal by mugget, on Flickr
Fridgebox by mugget, on Flickr
Gixxer 03 by mugget, on Flickr
Gixxer 02 by mugget, on Flickr
And yep - I said I will still do motorsport!
Rangefinder does motorsport! by mugget, on Flickr
If anyone has some rangefinder tips or tricks for a newbie I'd love to hear!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Nice stuff. Thanks. But of course you must be lying, as everyone knows you can't do sport with a rangefinder. Well, everyone who hasn't tried it, or doesn't know how...
Maybe you'll start a trend. And if you can get a 135/2.8 for the M8 -- well, it shoud suit you very well.
Cheers,
R.
Maybe you'll start a trend. And if you can get a 135/2.8 for the M8 -- well, it shoud suit you very well.
Cheers,
R.
Dr Gaspar
Established
Nice pictures Mugget, and what Roger said... try getting a 135 or a 90.