"Ghouls Took Photos Of Dying Suicide Girl"

[emraphoto]

Jim was famous way before the documentary. Way way before it. There is now a middle class of the 1st world who think that they have all the answers, that they have the right to say what and what should not be documented and in what manner.

Come spend a weekend with me in Manilla or in Georgia and you would feel so different, it would jolt you out of the complacency that has led the planet to be so uncaring for their fellow humans. Begging for someones life to be spared is the epitome of empathy and he was very much risking his own skin by doing so, it was most certainly not done 'for the camera'

The 24 hour news cycle has created a generation where suffering is something that can be shooed away by changing the channel. Noone can comment on the atrocity of famine or the horror of war until they have seen it or the afttermath of it. And that is what photographers try to do, to allow people to experience that without having to be there, we travel to the places where noone else will go in order to bring the reality of the world to suburban america/england/france/germany.

One does not sell the misery of others, one attempts to tell the story of the world forgotten, the world that does ont fit into the life view of the general population of the world anymore, one where life is hard and terrible things happen. That is what photojouralists do, and will continue to do, for it is one of the most important things that can come out of conflict, a desire to not allow it to happen again. TO let the world know what is happening in the dark corners of the world where Fox/CNN can't tell a 24 hour news story, the story of the people of Haiti who have been forgotten by the world already, the Gulf where noone is reportting on it anymore. This is where the story must continue to be told by people better than the networks, by journalists who want to make things better. Who want to educate. To enlighten and to change the way things work. And rarely, they do, and it makes the whole dirty horrible thing worthwhile.

well said. might i also add that i sleep a hell of a lot better at night knowing i have given 150% trying. i reckon a lot of folks won't really understand the process without witnessing what goes on behind the "official briefings'. the incident between the UN/Pakistani forces in Mogadishu and a crowd of women and children would have been erased from history if it wasn't for 1 single photojournalist.

 

[emraphoto]

emraphoto & JayGannon:


Mr. Nachtwey has all the best intentions in the world. I admire his determination, even though what he does is the dream of many, so we can't say his unlucky. However, if it was not for the documentary War Photographer, he won't be as famous as his right now. It was that documentary, which turned him from a pretty good PJ to some sort of heroic figure with a camera. That says more about Hollywoodization of global culture than Mr. Nachtwey's true claim to fame.

But what a lot of people missed in that documentary was the irony and cynicism which came through. For example editors looking at Nachtwey's pictures and saying, "that pile of bodies are "fantastic", lets use it in double spread, thats "great"... Nachtwey chasing a mob who're playing with some dude before they kill him. Apparently he begs for the guy's life but nevertheless provides a witness to the frenzied mob, inevitably exciting them even more since they keep posing with the corps for him.

Anyway, video is a more credible and no nonsense method of documentation of suffering, atrocities and so on for wider information. videos through news channels and youtube gets the widest audience, without being hanged in galleries, dodged and burned for effect and sold at large sums... how could one sell the misery of others? that question is not for me to answer.

Classic photojournalism is dead long ago, I won't go into that argument here but I would say that even if not a single still PJ visit a situation there will be videos and still shots by cameras of local people informing the rest of the world... There is no need for PJs anymore, and whenever I see these dudes with their two large DSLRs and poker faces running around i see endangered species.

I'd rather be a neurotic Winogrand or Moriyama walking around streets and photographing boring stuff rather than go to some war and try to "inform" the rest of the world. Inform of them of what? of what is already on youtube and every other media source on the net?

that, i could not disagree with more.

i might also add that the term 'photojournalism' is very, very broad. when i see the dudes with the 2 dslr's, taped and labelled up with the respective outlet, i also see an endangered species.

 

[ebino]

Jim was famous way before the documentary. Way way before it. There is now a middle class of the 1st world who think that they have all the answers, that they have the right to say what and what should not be documented and in what manner.

Come spend a weekend with me in Manilla or in Georgia and you would feel so different, it would jolt you out of the complacency that has led the planet to be so uncaring for their fellow humans. Begging for someones life to be spared is the epitome of empathy and he was very much risking his own skin by doing so, it was most certainly not done 'for the camera'

The 24 hour news cycle has created a generation where suffering is something that can be shooed away by changing the channel. Noone can comment on the atrocity of famine or the horror of war until they have seen it or the afttermath of it. And that is what photographers try to do, to allow people to experience that without having to be there, we travel to the places where noone else will go in order to bring the reality of the world to suburban america/england/france/germany.

One does not sell the misery of others, one attempts to tell the story of the world forgotten, the world that does ont fit into the life view of the general population of the world anymore, one where life is hard and terrible things happen. That is what photojouralists do, and will continue to do, for it is one of the most important things that can come out of conflict, a desire to not allow it to happen again. TO let the world know what is happening in the dark corners of the world where Fox/CNN can't tell a 24 hour news story, the story of the people of Haiti who have been forgotten by the world already, the Gulf where noone is reportting on it anymore. This is where the story must continue to be told by people better than the networks, by journalists who want to make things better. Who want to educate. To enlighten and to change the way things work. And rarely, they do, and it makes the whole dirty horrible thing worthwhile.

I cringe at the very idea of hero worship. I respect Nachtwey, but not unquestioningly. His just a photographer and to be honest I can't think of any images by him which I would consider a masterpiece. On the other hand Don McCullin, now that guy is someone that I have the deepest respect for. Not only that his images are some of the most famous war images ever, but they're Art, with a capital A. HCB after looking at his work went to him and said, "Goya!". Don McCullin is the Goya of photography and that puts him on a different level. His beyond what I criticize about PJs, his an artist of the highest caliber, even though he hates to be labeled as such, and his images are extraordinary. But whats most extraordinary about Don McCullin is his humility and tortured soul. His more critical of himself and his images than anyone else, he seems to almost share the misery that he has photographed, his a man who's shaped by his work. His not slick like Nacthwey with his jeans and neatly parted hair, he looks tortured and he speaks as if his in mourning.

So, if Don McCullin was still active, I would give my own money to him to go and photograph the suffering of other people, and the same applies to Slagado, I would finance such photographers myself because i know their work is enriching to human legacy. Nachtwey with all do respect is a hero from a Hollywood movie. His tall, slim, handsome and stoic, young Client Eastwood with a camera.


To your invitation for me to spend some time in Philippians or Georgia, I would say, why those place? Why not Mexico? Why none of these heroic photographers are in mexico photographing the drug war and its impact on people? The answer is easy, too dangerous... I guess they could always "embed" with Mexican forces... And keep photographing, from safety, like Tyler Hicks of NY with his underexposed pictures of American soldiers in Afghanistan... You see where I'm going, so I think before you make such generalizations, please indulge in some soul searching... You could photograph the poor folks in Philippians or Georgia and satisfy the schadenfreude of "the creative class" in the west, but in the end you're peddling to the same people that you despise because the only people with interest in pictures of poor folks in the far off places are the rich people in the rich countries, mostly in the west. the poor themselves don't give a crap about photography and such. to them this is all a western boy's game.

 

[JayGannon]

I cringe at the very idea of hero worship. I respect Nachtwey, but not unquestioningly. His just a photographer and to be honest I can't think of any images by him which I would consider a masterpiece. On the other hand Don McCullin, now that guy is someone that I have the deepest respect for. Not only that his images are some of the most famous war images ever, but they're Art, with a capital A. HCB after looking at his work went to him and said, "Goya!". Don McCullin is the Goya of photography and that puts him on a different level. His beyond what I criticize about PJs, his an artist of the highest caliber, even though he hates to be labeled as such, and his images are extraordinary. But whats most extraordinary about Don McCullin is his humility and tortured soul. His more critical of himself and his images than anyone else, he seems to almost share the misery that he has photographed, his a man who's shaped by his work. His not slick like Nacthwey with his jeans and neatly parted hair, he looks tortured and he speaks as if his in mourning.

So, if Don McCullin was still active, I would give my own money to him to go and photograph the suffering of other people, and the same applies to Slagado, I would finance such photographers myself because i know their work is enriching to human legacy. Nachtwey with all do respect is a hero from a Hollywood movie. His tall, slim, handsome and stoic, young Client Eastwood with a camera.


To your invitation for me to spend some time in Philippians or Georgia, I would say, why those place? Why not Mexico? Why none of these heroic photographers are in mexico photographing the drug war and its impact on people? The answer is easy, too dangerous... I guess they could always "embed" with Mexican forces... And keep photographing, from safety, like Tyler Hicks of NY with his underexposed pictures of American soldiers in Afghanistan... You see where I'm going, so I think before you make such generalizations, please indulge in some soul searching... You could photograph the poor folks in Philippians or Georgia and satisfy the schadenfreude of "the creative class" in the west, but in the end you're peddling to the same people that you despise because the only people with interest in pictures of poor folks in the far off places are the rich people in the rich countries, mostly in the west. the poor themselves don't give a crap about photography and such. to them this is all a western boy's game.

Or it might be because I'm not American so Georgia is a war on my own continent? I've never embedded, I believe that its propoganda not journalism. As for being in danger, don't even try to lecture me.
And yes the people do care, it just shows your lack of expericec with the area, you are talking to me about something wich you have admitted you have no experience with as if your a seasoned verteran of journalism...

As for your continued attacks on Nachtwey, please do some research and look at the dates of his work. The majority of it was done before the movie, and the movie is a very small one at that. He has been published for many many years. But I guess your just goin to ignore what doesnt fit in with your life view.

I'll keep doing what I'm doing and you will continue to be ignorant of the rest of the world. See its not about the photos or the photographer its about the impact, its about the change they make.

 

[ebino]

Or it might be because I'm not American so Georgia is a war on my own continent? I've never embedded, I believe that its propoganda not journalism. As for being in danger, don't even try to lecture me.
And yes the people do care, it just shows your lack of expericec with the area, you are talking to me about something wich you have admitted you have no experience with as if your a seasoned verteran of journalism...

As for your continued attacks on Nachtwey, please do some research and look at the dates of his work. The majority of it was done before the movie, and the movie is a very small one at that. He has been published for many many years. But I guess your just goin to ignore what doesnt fit in with your life view.

I'll keep doing what I'm doing and you will continue to be ignorant of the rest of the world. See its not about the photos or the photographer its about the impact, its about the change they make.

I think for me to now tell you about my experiences would be sort of trying to get some rep from you, so I will refrain from that. But you have no idea who I'm what are my experiences, so don't be presumptive.


But yes, I have never photographed a war and I will not from my own free will... I will not go to poor countries and photograph poverty, i'd rather photograph rich people in the west in their own sort of unique misery.

So please keep at it and if you wish to look up to someone then I would suggest you up your game from Nachtwey to Don McCullin and other greats.

good luck.

 

[emraphoto]

I cringe at the very idea of hero worship. I respect Nachtwey, but not unquestioningly. His just a photographer and to be honest I can't think of any images by him which I would consider a masterpiece. On the other hand Don McCullin, now that guy is someone that I have the deepest respect for. Not only that his images are some of the most famous war images ever, but they're Art, with a capital A. HCB after looking at his work went to him and said, "Goya!". Don McCullin is the Goya of photography and that puts him on a different level. His beyond what I criticize about PJs, his an artist of the highest caliber, even though he hates to be labeled as such, and his images are extraordinary. But whats most extraordinary about Don McCullin is his humility and tortured soul. His more critical of himself and his images than anyone else, he seems to almost share the misery that he has photographed, his a man who's shaped by his work. His not slick like Nacthwey with his jeans and neatly parted hair, he looks tortured and he speaks as if his in mourning.

So, if Don McCullin was still active, I would give my own money to him to go and photograph the suffering of other people, and the same applies to Slagado, I would finance such photographers myself because i know their work is enriching to human legacy. Nachtwey with all do respect is a hero from a Hollywood movie. His tall, slim, handsome and stoic, young Client Eastwood with a camera.


To your invitation for me to spend some time in Philippians or Georgia, I would say, why those place? Why not Mexico? Why none of these heroic photographers are in mexico photographing the drug war and its impact on people? The answer is easy, too dangerous... I guess they could always "embed" with Mexican forces... And keep photographing, from safety, like Tyler Hicks of NY with his underexposed pictures of American soldiers in Afghanistan... You see where I'm going, so I think before you make such generalizations, please indulge in some soul searching... You could photograph the poor folks in Philippians or Georgia and satisfy the schadenfreude of "the creative class" in the west, but in the end you're peddling to the same people that you despise because the only people with interest in pictures of poor folks in the far off places are the rich people in the rich countries, mostly in the west. the poor themselves don't give a crap about photography and such. to them this is all a western boy's game.

you keep throwing your ideas and thoughts out like they are some sort of empirical evidence. there are photographers in Juarez right now. Eros Hoagland for one. there are others but i need to be out the door in a blink so you will have to do some googling yourself.

might i also add that you are presenting us with OPINIONS or personal LIKES versus any accurate assessment. have you been with the poor? have you travelled to any of these places? well i have and i assure you the people are VERY thankful that someone is there to experience their story and share it with others. that has been the consistent theme in Nigeria, Chad, The DRC, Mexico, Guatemala, Benin, Nicaragua etc.

there is no hero worship going on. no one has placed James on a pedestal but you. all i, and i suspect Jay, are saying is that your assessment is unfair and ignorant of facts.

by the way, your description of Don McCullins persona fits Nachtwey to a T.

And Eros is not embedded with the army or police in Juarez.

 

[JayGannon]

I think for me to now tell you about my experiences would be sort of trying to get some rep from you, so I will refrain from that. But you have no idea who I'm what are my experiences, so don't be presumptive.


But yes, I have never photographed a war and I will not from my own free will... I will not go to poor countries and photograph poverty, i'd rather photograph rich people in the west in their own sort of unique misery.

So please keep at it and if you wish to look up to someone then I would suggest you up your game from Nachtwey to Don McCullin and other greats.

good luck.

Ok but if you want me to take that attitude please dont make assumptions about photographers that your only experience of is a movie and anecdotal stories around their experiences.

As for who I 'look up to' I don't look up to any photographer, I have friends who's work I respect but I dont feel the need to have a role model in my work. As for upping my game, I've met both Jim and Mr McCullin and have great respect for both of them in their own way, both woked in different eras and have different bodies of work.
To claim that Nachtwey is some sort of war profiteer who isnt effected by the things he shoots and is impeccable and detached couldnt be further from the truth. Maybe if you met these people or made the effort to understand them you would realise this.

 

[emraphoto]

Or it might be because I'm not American so Georgia is a war on my own continent? I've never embedded, I believe that its propoganda not journalism. As for being in danger, don't even try to lecture me.
And yes the people do care, it just shows your lack of expericec with the area, you are talking to me about something wich you have admitted you have no experience with as if your a seasoned verteran of journalism...

As for your continued attacks on Nachtwey, please do some research and look at the dates of his work. The majority of it was done before the movie, and the movie is a very small one at that. He has been published for many many years. But I guess your just goin to ignore what doesnt fit in with your life view.

I'll keep doing what I'm doing and you will continue to be ignorant of the rest of the world. See its not about the photos or the photographer its about the impact, its about the change they make.

as in the case of James Nachtwey and his tireless effort to raise awareness of tuberculosis.

 

[zumbido]

Does anyone really know what change is effected by such pictures? It's taken as a given (and personally, I'm inclined to believe it). But I've never seen any evidence for it.

 

[JayGannon]

Does anyone really know what change is effected by such pictures? It's taken as a given (and personally, I'm inclined to believe it). But I've never seen any evidence for it.

Check out the stories behind some of these and their direct effects.
http://brainz.org/10-war-photographs-changed-world-forever/

Obviously they can only change things in context but photos have a history of being powerful tools on both sides of an argument/war/conflict/confrontation.

 

[ebino]

you keep throwing your ideas and thoughts out like they are some sort of empirical evidence. there are photographers in Juarez right now. Eros Hoagland for one. there are others but i need to be out the door in a blink so you will have to do some googling yourself.

might i also add that you are presenting us with OPINIONS or personal LIKES versus any accurate assessment. have you been with the poor? have you travelled to any of these places? well i have and i assure you the people are VERY thankful that someone is there to experience their story and share it with others. that has been the consistent theme in Nigeria, Chad, The DRC, Mexico, Guatemala, Benin, Nicaragua etc.

there is no hero worship going on. no one has placed James on a pedestal but you. all i, and i suspect Jay, are saying is that your assessment is unfair and ignorant of facts.

by the way, your description of Don McCullins persona fits Nachtwey to a T.

And Eros is not embedded with the army or police in Juarez.

What else could i speak of if not for my own opinions and ideas? What else could i photograph if not for my own preferences and fixations? What I say could sound anyway its perceived but its mine and i 'm not going to pretend that I'm objective. Anyone who pretend to be objective is either deceitful or painfully ignorant.

Having said that I would ask you, could you possibly photograph a naked boy in the west, without permission from his family and then hang it in a gallery and sell it? Or naked boys in third world countries are fair game? The same applies to all the taboo subjects that the west will not allow the photographer to get away with but the poverty of the poor in third world countries offers for free... I guess these sort of ethical and moral dilemma are too complicated by Disney-inspired-worldview of the right and wrong that some people seem to embrace.


Going back to Don McCullin, yes he has photographed naked famine victims and hang them in galleries, but his pictures are so tragic and powerful that those poor naked souls in his picture are forever transformed into immortal works of art... But then, McCullin calls taking the picture of a naked starved woman with a baby sucking on her empty breast as "a crime". There is the difference and between brutal honesty and art versus mere hypocrisy and pretension to virtue.

I respect photographers who're full of doubt, tortured about the morality and ethics of what they're doing. the first sign of a self-righteous photographer and i run away... once again i'm shamelessly blowing my own trumpet, by offering my own opinion.

 

[ebino]

Ok but if you want me to take that attitude please dont make assumptions about photographers that your only experience of is a movie and anecdotal stories around their experiences.

As for who I 'look up to' I don't look up to any photographer, I have friends who's work I respect but I dont feel the need to have a role model in my work. As for upping my game, I've met both Jim and Mr McCullin and have great respect for both of them in their own way, both woked in different eras and have different bodies of work.
To claim that Nachtwey is some sort of war profiteer who isnt effected by the things he shoots and is impeccable and detached couldnt be further from the truth. Maybe if you met these people or made the effort to understand them you would realise this.

I'm looking forward to you offering some of your pictures for us to see. And I'm sure your mission would be accomplished if you at least share with us some of the misery that you encounter and make us better. But your signature is empty.

 

[zumbido]

Check out the stories behind some of these and their direct effects.
http://brainz.org/10-war-photographs-changed-world-forever/

Obviously they can only change things in context but photos have a history of being powerful tools on both sides of an argument/war/conflict/confrontation.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, really. It claims that each of these changed the world, but doesn't offer any particular evidence for the claim.

I mean, it's a difficult thing to ask. It's easy to judge pop-culture influence or persistence, much harder to investigate how much people's actions were actually altered by an image. Because, of course, you don't have an alternate reality to compare against. So I wouldn't really expect anything conclusive, but it's an interesting question. You'd think at least one or two PhD students whose advisors are looking for grants for a new and different research area would have written about it. 😉

 

[antiquark]

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, really. It claims that each of these changed the world, but doesn't offer any particular evidence for the claim.

Well, the Vietnam war photographs helped make the war extremely unpopular. In a democracy, a war has to be popular to keep going. The US left a few years after the pictures in that article were taken. I know, correlation is not causation...

 

[zumbido]

Well, the Vietnam war photographs helped make the war extremely unpopular. In a democracy, a war has to be popular to keep going. The US left a few years after the pictures in that article were taken. I know, correlation is not causation...

It'd be interesting to map opinions of the war--including polls, marches (significance rated by size and location, among other things), etc.--on a timeline alongside various events, including publication of photos like the classic Nguyen execution. It'd unavoidably succumb to at least some selection bias so it wouldn't conclusively demonstrate anything... but it would at least be interesting.

 

[Nikon Bob]

We know photos of war and atrocities have been around almost from the beginning of photography. We know wars and atrocities still abound. We don't know for sure if any of the photos of war and atrocities have moderated anything. Still no reason to stop trying to push that huge boulder up hill until a better method can be found. You have to do what you can.

Bob

 

[emraphoto]

That young 'naked boy' has polio. A disease that has supposedly been eradicated in out world (which apparently extends to as far as CNN cares to reach).

That particular photograph has served it's purpose in ways I couldn't have imagined whn I took it. I have not pocketed a single dime from it's multiple sales.

You are entitled to your assumptions and rhetoric and at this point I will leave you to it.

 

[JayGannon]

I'm looking forward to you offering some of your pictures for us to see. And I'm sure your mission would be accomplished if you at least share with us some of the misery that you encounter and make us better. But your signature is empty.

To be honest I have no interest in pandering to you, the people who know me know my work and thats all I care about. I have no interest in 'making you better' I have an interest in examining why you continue to be willfully ignorant of the facts presented to you. My private life is separate to my work life, and I intend to keep it that way.

 

[JayGannon]

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about, really. It claims that each of these changed the world, but doesn't offer any particular evidence for the claim.

I mean, it's a difficult thing to ask. It's easy to judge pop-culture influence or persistence, much harder to investigate how much people's actions were actually altered by an image. Because, of course, you don't have an alternate reality to compare against. So I wouldn't really expect anything conclusive, but it's an interesting question. You'd think at least one or two PhD students whose advisors are looking for grants for a new and different research area would have written about it. 😉

Good point, its hard to judge public perception though.

 

[Dogman]

When I was a newbie news photographer, I went to the scene of a motor vehicle accident. It was a rollover accident of a small convertible and the vehicle had caught fire. The driver had been trapped under the car and had burned to death. I photographed the scene and the aftermath of the fire department pulling the burnt body from the wreckage. Pretty gory stuff. That's what I thought news photographers were supposed to do and just let the editors decide to use or not use the photos.

Later that day, I learned the victim was the newly wed husband of someone I knew. I felt ill about the incident and my actions at the scene. When I went to the darkroom to print the photos, I did not print the ones of the body being recovered. I told no editor about these photos. Later I questioned whether or not anyone has the right or responsibility to intrude into such an intimate moment--the end of one's life--or inflict possible further pain on the family and friends of the deceased. Maybe I grew up a little bit that day as a human being as opposed to being a photographer because I never again jumped in and photographed a body and I avoided photographing grieving family members after the fact. While I photographed at the scene of numerous fatal accidents and homicides over the next couple of decades, I avoided death photos. Several times I intentionally f***ed up assignments involving family members and friends at funerals of loved ones. If it meant the loss of a good photo, so be it. Photos have a short self life in newspapers. Tomorrow, most people will have forgotten about the great photo of a fatality in yesterday's paper. Except for the family and friends of the victim. That image may be something they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Historically and on a case by case basis, sometimes such photos may be necessary. For that reason I'm not going to judge the motives or morals of other photographers who photograph scenes of death and the personal misery caused by death. I won't.