Going...Going....

[kiev4a]

This may already have been addressed but I was at Wally World the other day and discovered their film display has shrunk to about 1/3 its previous size. There also is less choice of film with much of the display devoted to disposable film cameras. No longer any Tri-X offered, either. Wallgreen also has cut back on film and, of course, now only offers the house brand and Kodak.

Both these chains have very active on-site one-hour labs. Seems a little strange to restrict the availability of film when you have a film processor. Or maybe they are trying to encourage folks to go digital so they won't need the processing equipment any more.

Looks like within a few years we'll all be ordering film on line if we live outside the major urban areas.

 

[zuikologist]

It is an issue that us urban dwellers do not really consider. Perhaps we can set up a support network on RFF (between us we should be able to negotiate some MAJOR discounts on bulk film orders).

 

[bmattock]

This may already have been addressed but I was at Wally World the other day and discovered their film display has shrunk to about 1/3 its previous size. There also is less choice of film with much of the display devoted to disposable film cameras. No longer any Tri-X offered, either. Wallgreen also has cut back on film and, of course, now only offers the house brand and Kodak.

Both these chains have very active on-site one-hour labs. Seems a little strange to restrict the availability of film when you have a film processor. Or maybe they are trying to encourage folks to go digital so they won't need the processing equipment any more.

Looks like within a few years we'll all be ordering film on line if we live outside the major urban areas.

Yes, I believe it is symptomatic of the film phaseout. We did have this discussion a week or so ago, but it was a contentious thread about WHY we are seeing a reduction in the amount of film available for retail sale, rather than noting what's happening from a historical perspective and discussing what we're going to do about it.

I have also noticed - Walmart has shrunk their film displays in my area also - some of the reclaimed shelf space now belongs to single-use film cameras; it seems there are a lot of those displayed. My local Walgreens, in addition to running film sales on their house (Agfa) Studio 35 film, has done away completely with Fuji brand film and now sells only Kodak. Walmart sells "Polaroid" brand, which is relabeled Agfa as well, I understand.

With Agfa gone by the end of the year, that will be *it* for Polaroid and Studio 35 house brands, I guess. Unless they make nice with KonicaMinolta or Ferrania, which might happen. I'm guessing that they are clearing them out entirely, so watch for further deals on the house brands. If they say they are made in Germany, they're Agfa of one type or another.

Both Walgreens and Walmart seem to have done completely away with slide film of all sorts. There is C41 color from ISO 800 to ISO 200 (the ISO 100 seems to be gone too), C41 Monochromatic film, some limited APS film, some 110 (wow). Until a few months ago, I could still buy Tri-X in my local Walgreens, but that's gone now.

I believe that the reason you're noticing very busy one-hour labs and much less film for sale has two main reasons:

One - people who have not yet made the economic decision to jump to digital are now using single-use cameras, and they're blowing those out by the truckload.

Two - those who have gone over to digital have found that they can have prints made up quickly and easily at the traditional one-hour place. Note that all the one-hour places have lots of NEW equipment - and all of it can do film/digital, including receiving downloaded internet orders. I print that way at the local Walmart myself all the time. Upload my scanned negs (or digital files from DSLR) and pick them up at Wally World. Works great, is cheap. I can even have them printed at the Wally World nearest my friends and family and THEY can pick them up locally, saves shipping and time. Very cool.

On a side note - I had seldom seen KonicaMinolta (formerly Konica) color print film for sale in the USA at the retail level. They just didn't have much market penetration here. Same for Ferrania (Solaris, truly a crappy film the last time I tried it, but available in 126 carts and 127 for guys who love the really old stuff). Now here lately, I am seeing KM C41 print film showing up with online retailers, and I'll take a SWAG and say that we'll be seeing that brand in retail stores soon.

Why? If film is dying, what's up with that?

I think it is because as film sales began to stagnate and fall over dead, Kodak and Fuji reacted as quickly as they could, but poorly in general. Now they are racing to get ahead of the trend, and in some minor ways, they may have done it - now for a brief period of time, demand may outpace supply for 35mm color print film at the retail level. Enter KM and Ferrania for their 15 minutes of fame before the lights go out. That's just in the USA, don't know what it is like elsewhere.

That's my take on it, anyway. Lot of companies pay top dollar for market analysis like this.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[zeos 386sx]

Lot of companies pay top dollar for market analysis like this.

Naw, they just visit RFF and get it on-the-cheap. 😛

 

[r-brian]

Film sales are going to be directly related to camera sales. Seven years ago when I worked in the local camera store, we had 2 display cases full of 35mm P&S cameras and only 4 models of digital cameras ($1000+). Today, this store has 2 display cases of digital P&S cameras and about a half dozen models of 35mm P&S. You can't sell film if you don't sell the camera. The same thing at the local Ritz. Last time I was in there, the salesman said they hadn't sold a 35mm P&S in a year.

As Bill pointed out, all the one-hour machines now accept digital files. I feel that is what really has caused the downfall of flim. Anyone can now get digital files printed as easily as they could film before. Seven years ago you had a digital file but no place to get it printed.

Since buying my wife a nice digital P&S (Minolta Z-2) we have not shot a single roll of 35mm color print film. And we've shot 100 times the amount of pictures we did in the past.

Brian

PS, you will have to pry my B&W medium and large format film out of dead hands.

 

[aad]

Film will be around for a long time, but I expect the ease of purchase will disappear soon.

Why the optimism? All the people who just like their cameras need film to use them. That's a good market, eh?

 

[bmattock]

Film will be around for a long time, but I expect the ease of purchase will disappear soon.

Why the optimism? All the people who just like their cameras need film to use them. That's a good market, eh?

Well, that's a bit of a problem. Ordinarily, the market will respond to demand by producing product. However, even if that were true in this case, the amortized cost of making the product must be spread across the customer base - in other words, with fewer customers, it becomes more expensive to sell the film at a profit - film gets really expensive.

And the usual business rules may not apply in this case. There is a high bar to entry - film producers are massive polluters in general terms. Old companies and factories might be 'grandfathered' but new owners and new factories would probably not be.

Well, in any case, time will tell. Best of luck to all of us.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[kiev4a]

Well, that's a bit of a problem. Ordinarily, the market will respond to demand by producing product. However, even if that were true in this case, the amortized cost of making the product must be spread across the customer base - in other words, with fewer customers, it becomes more expensive to sell the film at a profit - film gets really expensive.

And the usual business rules may not apply in this case. There is a high bar to entry - film producers are massive polluters in general terms. Old companies and factories might be 'grandfathered' but new owners and new factories would probably not be.

Well, in any case, time will tell. Best of luck to all of us.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Very good points, Bill. The fewer the customers, the higher the price. Looking at it from a strictly personal basis, I figure I'll run out of time just about the time film gets too expensive for me to afford, anyway.

 

[aad]

You're betting against enterprising people in developing (ahem) nations. The tooling and technology exists, and I guess will be moved.

The US doesn't make much steel anymore, either. Or shoes. I know, a different market-but if there's demand and willingness to pay, someone will fill the void Did you know you can buy almost any part for a Model T Ford, new?

 

[kiev4a]

You're betting against enterprising people in developing (ahem) nations. The tooling and technology exists, and I guess will be moved.

The US doesn't make much steel anymore, either. Or shoes. I know, a different market-but if there's demand and willingness to pay, someone will fill the void Did you know you can buy almost any part for a Model T Ford, new?

The problem is that worldwide it's likely that folks who have never had any type of camera may jump directly to digital, thereby taking away the incentive enterprising developing nations to pick up the film flag if it is dropped by the major companies.

 

[Toby]

I think it is important not to confuse mass market film sales (ie 1 hour colour neg) with enthusiast / professional film sales. I personally would never buy slide film from anywhere that doesn't have a fridge to put it in. I've used Tri-X almost exclusively for almost ten years for black and white and it has never been widely available in the UK outside specialist camera shops in this period. In the UK online film sales have been massively undercutting traditional film outlets for years. In short, places like Boots ( a large UK pharmacy chain ) are not a first choice for us sophisticated urban rff'ers. I put walmart in the same bracket obviously film sales will decline but to what extent is the question. 120/6/7 were the mass market films for years when 35mm came along they declined but 120 survived. In my mind a specialist company like Ilford may be better placed to survive than giants like Kodak but even they will have to adopt a strategy of managed decline after a while. If really kickass digital rangefinders or medium format cameras appear the demise might be quicker. I did also see a prototype drawing many moons ago for a digital sensor that could be put into any analogue camera like film with the 'tongue' being the sensor. Maybe this is the long term future for classic cameras ?

 

[aad]

Ilford is widely available in my neck o' the woods, and seems to sell out quickly. Absolutely tons of Fuji, too, everywhere.

 

[Toby]

What I meant was Ilford probably have a relatively low volume plant that specialises in b&w - I suspect monochrome has *ironically* a brighter future than colour neg

 

[x-ray]

I was in Adolph Gasser in San Francisco last week buying some Ilford Delta 100. No shortage there but the sales guy expressed that he had information that Kodak would stop all B&W film production next year. True or not this would not surprise me. On the other hand I read an article about B&W large format and Ilford stated that they are currently producing more large and ultra large format film than ever before. Also I read in the same article that and i cant remember which company Wista or Wisner is producing a record number of ultra large format cameras. Also alternative processes like platinum printing is at a record high.

Color neg particularly in small formats might be short lived but B&W is here for the photo artist for some time to come. If you're concerned about loosing kodak B&W give some of the eastern european films like maco or french emulsions like Bergger a try. Also give Ilford , my personal favorite, a try. These are excellent and some like Bergger are remakes of old kodak emulsions.

Even in the back country of Knoxville we have a very ample supply of 35mm and medium format B&W. I purchase most of my film from B&H or Calumet and I've not experienced and problems getting B&W.

 

[GeneW]

I keep an eye on what's on the rack at the express checkout at the local discount grocery, and have noticed recently that the selection has dropped to a couple of house brand rolls of 24exp col film. The Fuji that was there previously has disappeared. The Kodak rolls disappeared about a year ago. I don't know if my local express checkout is a valid sample, but film seems to be in retreat here too.

Fortunately there are a couple of large camera stores in Toronto that still stock a lot of B&W. They even have stocks of Rodinal on the shelves, at least for awhile. Kodak developers such as D76, HC-110 and XTOL are still plentiful. If I see those disappear I'm going to start freaking ...

Gene

 

[DerekF]

Not to sound argumentative or anything, but why should I care if Walmart is scaling back film inventory? I've never once set foot in a Walmart store before, but I can tell you that the two photo stores I frequent regularly have large stocks of film and it's been that way for at least the last five years or so. In fact, their film is displayed rather prominently alongside all of the digital gear they also sell.

 

[dostacos]

I go mainly to 2 camera stores, the first about 15 miles away has the film behind the counter in the fridge. HOWEVER, they never have a big supply and seem to be selling digital SLRs, Digital P&Ss with a pair of film SLRs listed on the front door but not in a display case. they also have a nice selection of paper, chemicals and lighting gear. They deal with a Photography class at a local college.

The second is about 35 miles away and is hard core B & W heaven, film, chemicals paper etc. their major market. they have a very few cameras [Lieca, Nikon, Mamiya & Hassy medium format and a couple of large format view camera. This is Freestyle and I am sure they do a nice internet business.

there is another close to my Photography classes BUT it is a pain in the butt to get into and mainly speaks digital.

I drive the 35 miles for film/paper and the closer one gets my developing work.

oh and I live in the Los Angeles area, we need to drive at least 20 miles just to change our minds 😀

 

[GeneW]

oh and I live in the Los Angeles area, we need to drive at least 20 miles just to change our minds 😀

Two Tacos, that's a funny description of LA! 😀

Gene

 

[bmattock]

Not to sound argumentative or anything, but why should I care if Walmart is scaling back film inventory? I've never once set foot in a Walmart store before, but I can tell you that the two photo stores I frequent regularly have large stocks of film and it's been that way for at least the last five years or so. In fact, their film is displayed rather prominently alongside all of the digital gear they also sell.

It matters because it is the same film producing industry, whether or not you buy film from their consumer brands in Wally World. When it becomes uneconomical to make film for Joe Sixpack, it is uneconomical to make 'pro' versions of that film for Polly Professional too.

I think we all are guilty from time to time of misunderstanding what drives the market. And make no mistake, there is ONE film market. Segmented that market may be, but no factory makes ONLY pro film, although plenty make ONLY amateur film.

Our needs as professional photographers and enthusiasts are a drop in the bucket to Kodak, et al. You could take every single cameraman and woman who has ever taken this pursuit seriously and if you counted them all up, they'd be one to a million against the Joe Sixpacks who just want some grainy, out-of-focus snapshots of the kid's Prom night. Like it or not - fair or not - THEY drive the market, not us. By the sheer force of their numbers.

Why does it matter what Walmart does or does not carry? Leading economic indicator, my friend. Send not to ask for whom the darkroom timer dings. It dings for thee.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

I think it is important not to confuse mass market film sales (ie 1 hour colour neg) with enthusiast / professional film sales.

I would. It is made in the same plants, by the same companies. When Kodak (or whomever) quits making film, they'll quit making ALL film. Why would they keep a factory that can produce a bazillion rolls of Kodak Gold 200 an hour just to idle along making a few rolls of Kodak Portra 160 NC per day? Not going to happen.

Our fortunes are directly tied to the mass market, like it or not.

120/6/7 were the mass market films for years when 35mm came along they declined but 120 survived.

There are a number of reasons a company might continue to make a film size like 120, even if it was no longer a mass-market hit.

Because it didn't cost a whole lot more to slit film into different sizes when the machinery that does that already existed and still worked. If they had introduced a new format, it would have been a different story. The film is already coated, and then slit. You'll notice no 120-only film emulsions (that I'm aware of, anyway). It has to be made in 35mm or you won't see it in 120.

Also, if the machinery and distribution channels already exist, why surrender the pro market to another company? Lose a little money, keep the pros shooting your film and not XYZ company's film. Joe Sixpack might notice that when they buy their single-use crapper-cam.

In my mind a specialist company like Ilford may be better placed to survive than giants like Kodak but even they will have to adopt a strategy of managed decline after a while. If really kickass digital rangefinders or medium format cameras appear the demise might be quicker. I did also see a prototype drawing many moons ago for a digital sensor that could be put into any analogue camera like film with the 'tongue' being the sensor. Maybe this is the long term future for classic cameras ?

I think I recall the company you're referring to - they took a lot of venture capital to heaven and disappeared after awhile. Nice idea, but...

The problem is this - all the classic rangefinder cameras in the world are worth approximately their value as melted-down steel and glass to most of the world. We know better - but we ain't the market, and the market don't care.

Ain't I just a little ray of sunshine?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks