FrankS
Registered User
For some people, it doesn't matter how an object is made. They only consider its function. Take a knife for instance. If its cuts well, that's all that is important to some.
For others, how an object is made is also important. Given that it also cuts well, some people would place greater value on a hand made/forged knife.
Why is that? Is it mere artifice? Is it fetishism? There can be more than one reason, and different people will have different reasons. Are there any defendable reasons with merit?
Consider also a house. It keeps its occupants warm/cool, dry, and secure. It could be a prefab house, a cookie cutter subdivision house, or a largely hand crafted timber frame house. Is there a difference in inherent (non-commercial) value?
What do you think?
For others, how an object is made is also important. Given that it also cuts well, some people would place greater value on a hand made/forged knife.
Why is that? Is it mere artifice? Is it fetishism? There can be more than one reason, and different people will have different reasons. Are there any defendable reasons with merit?
Consider also a house. It keeps its occupants warm/cool, dry, and secure. It could be a prefab house, a cookie cutter subdivision house, or a largely hand crafted timber frame house. Is there a difference in inherent (non-commercial) value?
What do you think?
FrankS
Registered User
Sorry, artifice was the wrong word to use.
I meant something shallow, frivolous, misguided
I meant something shallow, frivolous, misguided
daveleo
what?
I talk out of both sides of my mouth on this topic.
For the most part, functionality and economy of design drives my buying decisions.
Then again, I do love, buy and cherish hancrafted things. (My coffee mug collection is a good example of this.) The handcrafted character of something makes it a more personal item to me, and a good coffee cup is very personal
.
For the most part, functionality and economy of design drives my buying decisions.
Then again, I do love, buy and cherish hancrafted things. (My coffee mug collection is a good example of this.) The handcrafted character of something makes it a more personal item to me, and a good coffee cup is very personal
.
wes loder
Photographer/Historian
hand-built values
hand-built values
I am not sure how this pertains to RF photography, but living in a timber-frame home that I largely designed and finished myself, I know that I would never be as happy in a prefab as I am in this place.
In my photography, I find myself constantly struggling with balancing the ease and speed of digital vs. the slow, exacting demands of a RF film camera. Yet, I will not give up film, or my RF cameras. I think that part of this, as with the demands of a hand-built home, is that very demand for my care and attention. Perhaps we value something more because it requires our focus and attention, and our minds. WES
hand-built values
I am not sure how this pertains to RF photography, but living in a timber-frame home that I largely designed and finished myself, I know that I would never be as happy in a prefab as I am in this place.
In my photography, I find myself constantly struggling with balancing the ease and speed of digital vs. the slow, exacting demands of a RF film camera. Yet, I will not give up film, or my RF cameras. I think that part of this, as with the demands of a hand-built home, is that very demand for my care and attention. Perhaps we value something more because it requires our focus and attention, and our minds. WES
FrankS
Registered User
Thanks Dave.
Thanks Wes - I'm happy that my post has resulted in a rare post from you!
Thanks Wes - I'm happy that my post has resulted in a rare post from you!
helvetica
Well-known
The odd contradiction to me is that we associate products that are hand made as luxurious and exceptional, when in reality being handmade can be a liability. As the complexity of a system increases and error tolerances decrease, mechanization is the only way to achieve consistency. Think of exotic automobiles that are "hand assembled" and how they are known for costly upkeep versus the hordes of cookie cutter "sensible" cars. Throw in a bit of lore and you get stories such as how pulling back the upholstery on a British TVR sports car and you might find crass scrawling from one assembly worker to the next!
I think once you get past the practicality of it, it comes down to the warm feeling that you know that a literal person (and probably a skilled one at that) actually spent time making something for you. There was effort, attention, and care - and in a sense, validation that you are worth it. A product made by machines - while possibly costly - is without direct effort, and therefore not special.
Multiply this by a large factor if it is your own effort, as then the validation is that you made the thing, and are fulfilled in its accomplishment.
I think once you get past the practicality of it, it comes down to the warm feeling that you know that a literal person (and probably a skilled one at that) actually spent time making something for you. There was effort, attention, and care - and in a sense, validation that you are worth it. A product made by machines - while possibly costly - is without direct effort, and therefore not special.
Multiply this by a large factor if it is your own effort, as then the validation is that you made the thing, and are fulfilled in its accomplishment.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I'm guessing that there is an assumption that something handmade will be better made than a mass-produced item. I'm not sure about that. If the materials, design, and quality control of the mass-produced item are of a high standard, I think it will be as well made as the handmade item (and probably easier to fix at that). One of the great advances in industry has been the development of mass-production techniques that help ensure a repeatable level of quality.
I think the concept of "handmade" can only really apply to simple items, such as a knife or a piece of pottery or furniture -- none of which is a "mechanism." When you are dealing with a mechanism, which has a series of interdependent (and moving) parts, I think you need to have a high degree of interchangeability of parts and subassemblies. Without that, I'd argue it's impossible to keep them in operation.
I think the concept of "handmade" can only really apply to simple items, such as a knife or a piece of pottery or furniture -- none of which is a "mechanism." When you are dealing with a mechanism, which has a series of interdependent (and moving) parts, I think you need to have a high degree of interchangeability of parts and subassemblies. Without that, I'd argue it's impossible to keep them in operation.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
I watched a programme many years ago, about "the Japanese Way" of manufacturing. This programme featured engineers who claimed that, for complex products such as cars, the Japanese methods were far superior to "hand building".
They related this to the Portsmouth Block Mills, which started using machine tools in a continuous assembly process around 1802. They claimed that the quality of blocks used in Royal Navy ships improved reliability over the previous process of hand manufacture.
They also pointed out that, if the quality assurance regime was not adhered to, the manufacturer ended up with great numbers of faulty products. Those of us who bought British cars before 1990 can attest to the truth of that!
Sparrow
Veteran
I watched a programme many years ago, about "the Japanese Way" of manufacturing. This programme featured engineers who claimed that, for complex products such as cars, the Japanese methods were far superior to "hand building".
They related this to the Portsmouth Block Mills, which started using machine tools in a continuous assembly process around 1802. They claimed that the quality of blocks used in Royal Navy ships improved reliability over the previous process of hand manufacture.
They also pointed out that, if the quality assurance regime was not adhered to, the manufacturer ended up with great numbers of faulty products. Those of us who bought British cars before 1990 can attest to the truth of that!
... not sure one can trust propaganda from the military-industrial complex myself
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
You don't believe what the Ministry of Defence says?
So cynical at such a young age.
back alley
IMAGES
i like that we can all enjoy life differently and make no judgements about others.
i prefer living in a city and prefer living in an apartment compared to a house.
the idea of living in the 'country' is nice for a short holiday but it would drive me crazy full time.
i like the idea of handmade but don't like paying the extra costs involved in buying such an item.
are my on film wet printed images worth more than a digitally created lab produced print?
to some perhaps and others not so much!
my step-father would only drink his regular coffee made from a percolater coffee maker…his espresso from a small coffee maker placed on a gas flamed burner…
we are a diverse breed…enjoy us!
i prefer living in a city and prefer living in an apartment compared to a house.
the idea of living in the 'country' is nice for a short holiday but it would drive me crazy full time.
i like the idea of handmade but don't like paying the extra costs involved in buying such an item.
are my on film wet printed images worth more than a digitally created lab produced print?
to some perhaps and others not so much!
my step-father would only drink his regular coffee made from a percolater coffee maker…his espresso from a small coffee maker placed on a gas flamed burner…
we are a diverse breed…enjoy us!
Gid
Well-known
Is there anything these days that is genuinely hand made? That is, without the use of any machine tools? James Krenov was a woodworker who did everything by hand, even hand sawing great planks of wood, but I imagine that dedication to hand made is rare now (he died in 2009). Individually made pieces are a different matter IMO, but whether or not the degree of hand making in the final product is important is moot IMO. Products that are finished or fine tuned by hand can bring pleasure from knowing that individual care and attention has been paid. There may also be a certain cache to individuality. However, while I would prefer to support a small scale operation if I had the choice, the main driver for me is the enduring quality and utility of the product, not its method of creation.
ferider
Veteran
It depends, Frank. Romance and fetishism are a nice luxury unless your life depends on it. When I drive my R1100S at full speed, I kind of like the idea that its fork, frame and ABS system are "manufactured".
Note that I also drive a vintage car (and I've driven it far), but I did swap the breaks against modern disk breaks shortly after getting it.
I have a 1956 Summicron, the first Leitz computer optimized lens design. Was it hand made or manufactured ?
Roland.
Spanik
Well-known
That's what makes the difference for me: you hold something where you can say "that person made it". But for appreciation of the object it is how it is designed and how it performs its function that does it for me. Far lees how it was made. I can appreciate just as well a crude, rough tool that does a simple job but does it perfectly and without problem each time.
Is this a pun or just an error? Can"t make up my mind
Just great!
zauhar
Veteran
Frank, good thread - you know my position from my response on the interesting argument about Gibson.
Appreciate your viewpoints on this really central topic.
Randy
Appreciate your viewpoints on this really central topic.
Randy
I can be on both sides of the fence depending on what type of product we are talking about.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I own a Cris Mirabella jazz guitar that is a prototype. Hand made to me means crafted by one person and not "bench made like say a "Santa Cruz" guitar which I consider a "boutique" guitar even though the Santa Cruz I own was a custom order.
Large premiums and value added if the item is both custom made and basically a one off because mass production is avoided rarity inflates the cost. My friend Cris cuts a neck dovetail by hand that cant be performed by a machine (his dovetail is both large and deep like a De'Angelico).
Musical instruments at this level I deem hand made and the craftsmen are really artists. The enduring quality is there.
Cal
Gid
Well-known
Guitars. Now you're talking. A good friend of mine made me a superb acoustic guitar in the 70s. I watched the process and saw the amount of skill and effort put into creating the finished product. Very little machine work. I agree that this is as close to hand made as you can get.
Swift1
Veteran
I think the question is very dependent on the item and price range.
Something can be manufactured to fairly high standards, but because of mass production, the cost can be kept down. With handmade products, if low cost is a big factor, then quality usually suffers.
With guitars, one can go out and buy a fairly decent mass produced guitar for around $500, and chances are it is likely a better guitar than a $500 handmade guitar.
At the other end of the spectrum, a $5000 handmade guitar is probably going to be a better guitar than a $5000 manufactured guitar.
Handmade items will usually have a lot more character than manufactured items.
There are also very different levels of manufacturing. Take Lie-Nielsen Toolworks for example. They are a small handtool manufacturer in Maine, yet they consistently manufacture hand tools that are every bit as good as their handmade counterparts. Ever single part of every single tool they make enters the shop as raw materials.
Something can be manufactured to fairly high standards, but because of mass production, the cost can be kept down. With handmade products, if low cost is a big factor, then quality usually suffers.
With guitars, one can go out and buy a fairly decent mass produced guitar for around $500, and chances are it is likely a better guitar than a $500 handmade guitar.
At the other end of the spectrum, a $5000 handmade guitar is probably going to be a better guitar than a $5000 manufactured guitar.
Handmade items will usually have a lot more character than manufactured items.
There are also very different levels of manufacturing. Take Lie-Nielsen Toolworks for example. They are a small handtool manufacturer in Maine, yet they consistently manufacture hand tools that are every bit as good as their handmade counterparts. Ever single part of every single tool they make enters the shop as raw materials.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Consider "manu" (from "by hand") and "factured" (from "made") and ask if the proposed distinction is not a continuuum.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.