redisburning
Well-known
I base most of my major purchase decisions on longevity and the probability of getting my money back out of something.
for what it's worth my pocket knife is a Strider SJ75. I bought it at a brick and mortar and it was the only knife I could find that had a decent combination of actually cutting, size and safety. I was quite sore I had to spend so much; I went in looking to spend maybe 100 dollars on a new knife. sometimes you have a list of necessary criteria and you tell yourself that any old thing will do and you're just wrong.
for what it's worth my pocket knife is a Strider SJ75. I bought it at a brick and mortar and it was the only knife I could find that had a decent combination of actually cutting, size and safety. I was quite sore I had to spend so much; I went in looking to spend maybe 100 dollars on a new knife. sometimes you have a list of necessary criteria and you tell yourself that any old thing will do and you're just wrong.
redisburning
Well-known
oh and where hand made can mean a superior product is when you take random parts and modify them such that they fit together better not as two items in a vacuum but as a matched pair.
something a machine can do infinitely better but no one sets their machines up to do.
something a machine can do infinitely better but no one sets their machines up to do.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlight: Unsurprisingly. A selective assembly program would be quite hard to write, and would require either that the machine measured and stored the dimensions of all parts, or simply tried all parts until they met criteria for "smoothness" -- which would be even harder to program. Could a machine be "infinitely better"? I really, seriously doubt it.
Cheers,
R.
kennylovrin
Well-known
I think this is an interesting question..
Myself, I own a few guitars, one of them being a "completely" hand made Tim Kill custom Weissenborn-style guitar. It's handmade in the sense that no computer controlled machines are involved, but of course power tools are used to saw, drill etc, at least to my knowledge.
That guitar is also unique because he doesn't make two identical instruments, even if we would consider it possible to do such a thing by hand.
I don't own that guitar, or consider it better, because it is hand built, rather it's hand built because that was the only option I had to get an nicer guitar than the one I already owned.
It has higher affectionate value to me though because I know it is unique, but that has nothing to do with the process, but rather it's only the decision that the luthier choose to not duplicate designs.
I also own a semi-handmade Cole Clark guitar. It's just semi handmade because they use more computer controlled tools for higher accuracy etc, but to the best of my knowledge it is assembled by hand - but top and back etc are matched through computerized process.
Because this guitar still is assembled by hand I could also have it customized a bit, and therefor it is also somewhat "unique", but I would guess they'd do exactly the same for another customer.
Of course I think it is "cool" to own something that no one else owns, but it has absolutely nothing to do with quality for me. If I could, I'd rather pay less for a machine-manufactured instrument of equal quality.
Just because it is mass produced doesn't mean it is inherently of lower quality, it has nothing to do with the process at all, in my opinion. I do think however that mass production usually means people want to cut costs, and therefor also are more willing to skimp on quality, as opposed to a luthier making everything by hand perhaps. But it isn't always the case.
To be honest, if I ignore all the psychological aspects of uniqueness and respect for the craft etc, then handmade for me more or less means "imperfections". One thing I never understood is the argument that pops up sometimes where people say they prefer hand made stuff because of imperfections. I'm fine with people seeing it that way, but I don't get it myself.
I like stuff "perfect", I like that "perfect" fit and finish that in some cases only machines can produce (in my opinion). I do not like the "imperfections" created by the human factor, there is nothing romantic about that for me.
That being said, somethings machines are better at, other humans are better at, it is just the way it is. But I think the added value of hand made is largely psychological, or relating to things like uniqueness, emotional connection, personalization etc - and less about the actual product.
When it comes to cameras, I am pretty confident that Leica could automate 99% of the stuff they do by hand when assembling cameras, and at the same time lower the price a lot. They chose not do, which is fine, but I am not buying it is because of increased quality (in that case).
Myself, I own a few guitars, one of them being a "completely" hand made Tim Kill custom Weissenborn-style guitar. It's handmade in the sense that no computer controlled machines are involved, but of course power tools are used to saw, drill etc, at least to my knowledge.
That guitar is also unique because he doesn't make two identical instruments, even if we would consider it possible to do such a thing by hand.
I don't own that guitar, or consider it better, because it is hand built, rather it's hand built because that was the only option I had to get an nicer guitar than the one I already owned.
It has higher affectionate value to me though because I know it is unique, but that has nothing to do with the process, but rather it's only the decision that the luthier choose to not duplicate designs.
I also own a semi-handmade Cole Clark guitar. It's just semi handmade because they use more computer controlled tools for higher accuracy etc, but to the best of my knowledge it is assembled by hand - but top and back etc are matched through computerized process.
Because this guitar still is assembled by hand I could also have it customized a bit, and therefor it is also somewhat "unique", but I would guess they'd do exactly the same for another customer.
Of course I think it is "cool" to own something that no one else owns, but it has absolutely nothing to do with quality for me. If I could, I'd rather pay less for a machine-manufactured instrument of equal quality.
Just because it is mass produced doesn't mean it is inherently of lower quality, it has nothing to do with the process at all, in my opinion. I do think however that mass production usually means people want to cut costs, and therefor also are more willing to skimp on quality, as opposed to a luthier making everything by hand perhaps. But it isn't always the case.
To be honest, if I ignore all the psychological aspects of uniqueness and respect for the craft etc, then handmade for me more or less means "imperfections". One thing I never understood is the argument that pops up sometimes where people say they prefer hand made stuff because of imperfections. I'm fine with people seeing it that way, but I don't get it myself.
I like stuff "perfect", I like that "perfect" fit and finish that in some cases only machines can produce (in my opinion). I do not like the "imperfections" created by the human factor, there is nothing romantic about that for me.
That being said, somethings machines are better at, other humans are better at, it is just the way it is. But I think the added value of hand made is largely psychological, or relating to things like uniqueness, emotional connection, personalization etc - and less about the actual product.
When it comes to cameras, I am pretty confident that Leica could automate 99% of the stuff they do by hand when assembling cameras, and at the same time lower the price a lot. They chose not do, which is fine, but I am not buying it is because of increased quality (in that case).
Spanik
Well-known
Well, fitting in the sense you describe is something that isn't needed if the engineers did their job of specifying and tolerancing as they should be (and phb let them do it that way). Because if you could do it, some/all components have to be "oversized" to allow fitting. (you can add material but it will never be the same as removing material)
And some people do have machines dedicated to matching components. Kef loudspeakers does (did?) this and had a computer dedicated to it. All the production went through it and the computer matched sets to go in pairs of loudspeakers.
redisburning
Well-known
if you are doing it one piece at a time you simply measure the two parts and modify one to fit the other with the computer.
the machines are not set up to operate this way. they are set up to make the same part over and over again within a range of tolerance and parts outside of it get thrown away. then the parts are put together out of a bin without much effort put into matching them. benchmade is the worst ****ing example of this Ive never seen one where both scales line up right.
Ive seen computer controlled lathes operate; if you are willing to make things 1 at a time and spend tons of machine time to do it, it's very possible. that is kind of my point. not that you could easily mass produce things with a computer referencing every individual part and making 10,000 units that have the least mean squared differences between the gaps in the parts.
thegman
Veteran
For me, for some stuff it matters, and some not.
For computers, cars etc. we expect and understand that they've been assembled at least partly by machines, and are likely better for it.
On the other hand, I like the idea of people making things with their hands, and the level of skill required in that. I just read 'Longitude' by Dava Sobel, and that John Harrison built those sea going clocks/watches with his hands, I find unbelievable, and fascinating. A quartz watch will work better in it's task (keeping time at sea), but how can be not value the sheer skill level of one person in their abilty to build something like that?
Time and a place for both I suppose, but yes, hand made matters to me.
For computers, cars etc. we expect and understand that they've been assembled at least partly by machines, and are likely better for it.
On the other hand, I like the idea of people making things with their hands, and the level of skill required in that. I just read 'Longitude' by Dava Sobel, and that John Harrison built those sea going clocks/watches with his hands, I find unbelievable, and fascinating. A quartz watch will work better in it's task (keeping time at sea), but how can be not value the sheer skill level of one person in their abilty to build something like that?
Time and a place for both I suppose, but yes, hand made matters to me.
jippiejee
Well-known
It's an interesting question, and after having a look around my home I think the only hand-made item I could spot is my scrap-wood table.
Hand-made wooden chairs sound downright uncomfortable to me, I'd rather sit in my industrially-produced Eames chair really. Would I love my table as much had it come from a factory? Probably, if the materials used had been recycled as well. But maybe that's not possible on an industrial scale.
For everything else, there's probably chips and switches in them. Can I consider my M9 hand-made? I know Leica likes me to believe that, but it's not really an aspect of consideration to me. I'd love the camera just the same had a robot spit it out at the end of the line.
Hand-made wooden chairs sound downright uncomfortable to me, I'd rather sit in my industrially-produced Eames chair really. Would I love my table as much had it come from a factory? Probably, if the materials used had been recycled as well. But maybe that's not possible on an industrial scale.
For everything else, there's probably chips and switches in them. Can I consider my M9 hand-made? I know Leica likes me to believe that, but it's not really an aspect of consideration to me. I'd love the camera just the same had a robot spit it out at the end of the line.
back alley
IMAGES
hand made prints…
anyone have a hand made camera?
anyone have a hand made camera?
Coopersounds
Well-known
I appreciate craftsmanship is some things I own like hand made knives and handles. My favorite furniture is hand crafted.
However this is defined by the end quality, not the method.
However this is defined by the end quality, not the method.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Sparrow
Veteran
______
Well-known
And digital photography does not?
Joe AC
Well-known
I have a Custom Shop L5 that I like a lot, I really wouldn't call it handmade but it's beautiful. A lot of these custom makers based their designs on guitars like this. Even De'Angellico did. If it was good enough for Wes then it's good enough for me. I guess my point is that even people who historically made things by hand always looked for tools to make their jobs easier. The same is true today, the tools have just gotten better. One could make the argument that nothing is really "hand made"..except for maybe a sandwich.
Thanks
Joe
Photo_Smith
Well-known
I'm not sure handmade is better or higher quality; those wouldn't necessarily be why I choose handmade goods.
I think the reason to have handmade is often they are unique, all very slightly different or 'quirky' not uniformed like factory made goods.
Another reason would be to have something that is uniquely yours, for instance a bootmaker who makes boots that are fitted to your actual foot, they are unique in that they fit only you.
Handmade doesn't have anything to do with the tools used either, they just have to be made-by hand with human beings making them directly without machinery and other abstraction layers.
I think the reason to have handmade is often they are unique, all very slightly different or 'quirky' not uniformed like factory made goods.
Another reason would be to have something that is uniquely yours, for instance a bootmaker who makes boots that are fitted to your actual foot, they are unique in that they fit only you.
Handmade doesn't have anything to do with the tools used either, they just have to be made-by hand with human beings making them directly without machinery and other abstraction layers.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The question is, where do you start to define "machinery"? A guitar would be a good example. No-one is going to cut down a tree with an axe, hand-saw and adze the wood, mine, smelt and cast the metalwork (never mind making the strings)... "Hand assembled" would be a better term. My "hand made" boots were machine stitched...
Cheers,
R.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Depends on the specific object.
If we're talking cameras.... I've owned a bunch of Leica stuff. I've owned a bunch of gear from a bunch of other manufacturers. The Leica stuff, by far, has been more unreliable and/or temperamental. Canon and Nikon gear JUST WORKS. So, if the Leica is 'handmade,' and doesn't perform as expected, the 'handmadedness' is just a bout of wanking.
I didn't buy the Leica stuff because it was handmade. I actually don't care one way or the other with photographic equipment. I know some people sorta 'get off' on knowing an item was made in a certain country, by people with a certain distinction and all that. I always thought that was sorta ridiculous with cameras. But, i'm not 'anti-' whatever it is we're talking about. I'd much rather have a German car than one from Japan or Korea or the US. That's not a 'handmade' issue, but maybe one of the provenance/snobbery combo. Not sure if that's just because i prefer the aesthetics, engineering, and heritage, or if i have some prejudices at work.
Handmade, to me, isn't really an important distinction unless we're talking about art. And, in that, i might sometimes include furnishings. But, even with furniture, i'd still choose aesthetics and function over handmadedness.
Someone just mentioned guitars. I've bought a bunch, and never ever noted whether any were handmade or not. I assumed not, as i haven't bought any custom instruments. I do care where they're built, though, but only because resale value is a factor.
I can't think of much that i have that i expect to be handmade. I have some Sonus-Faber loudspeakers. Maybe they are? But, i bought them because of the sound and their physical beauty. I don't really care if they're made with the same machines as Bose. Watches? Again, i think it's all about design for me. I'm a graphic designer, and aesthetics take precedence much of the time. I don't know how my Panerai or Tag are made. And, fact is, i've had fakes that were as reliable as my real ones.
Oh- i once bought an old vase at a flea market in Rio. I have no idea where it came from, but it's beautiful. I hope very much that it is handmade and unique, and not something that could have been bought in their version of Crate and Barrel. But, that's back to Art and furnishings. With 'tools,' i really just want them to perform and give me an enjoyable experience while they're performing. Some people might get more out of the experience if they value the craft that went into that particular tool. I'm always much more focused on the task, though, and not about a 'fairy tale.' That last bit sounds dismissive and condescending, but it's not how i meant it. It's sorta like how people with Leicas sorta feel like they're 'channeling' HC-B when they're shooting, because they've got 'his' camera. We sometimes like to create stories for ourselves as it aggrandizes our lives, right?
Joao
Negativistic forever
Interesting thread.
It brings to my mind the Japaneses Wabi-sabi concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
Regards
Joao
It brings to my mind the Japaneses Wabi-sabi concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
Regards
Joao
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
nongfuspring
Well-known
Cameras, car break pads, guitars, suits - in terms of practicality and value the question is absolutely contingent on the item and circumstance.
Personally I prefer to buy things directly from the people who make them (industrially or otherwise). I know that when I hand over money to a tailor I am paying for their hard work, not the work of a marketer/advertiser/distributer/copyright lawyer/salesperson/administrator. An often misunderstood point to the arts and crafts movement is that it was a reaction not to industrialisation, but to the conditions that industrialisation aggravated; the alienation of workers from their goods, loss of worker rights, depersonalisation, the introduction of expensive administrative and managerial systems, the "capitalists" skimming worker profits, environmental damage etc. etc. For people like William Morris one of the founders of the movement, the reaction was to modernity, not the factory itself (he actually started his own mills - though according to his personal socialist ideals, a common theme in the arts and crafts movement).
Whenever I hear people talking about manufactured vs hand made, unless they're talking about something specific, I can't help but think generally they're not talking about the products or processes themselves, but rather the different philosophies the two production models have been associated with. For anyone to have a meaningful general discussion about it, the conflicting ideologies have to be disentangled from the production models (which are almost never mutually exclusive in the first place anyway).
Personally I prefer to buy things directly from the people who make them (industrially or otherwise). I know that when I hand over money to a tailor I am paying for their hard work, not the work of a marketer/advertiser/distributer/copyright lawyer/salesperson/administrator. An often misunderstood point to the arts and crafts movement is that it was a reaction not to industrialisation, but to the conditions that industrialisation aggravated; the alienation of workers from their goods, loss of worker rights, depersonalisation, the introduction of expensive administrative and managerial systems, the "capitalists" skimming worker profits, environmental damage etc. etc. For people like William Morris one of the founders of the movement, the reaction was to modernity, not the factory itself (he actually started his own mills - though according to his personal socialist ideals, a common theme in the arts and crafts movement).
Whenever I hear people talking about manufactured vs hand made, unless they're talking about something specific, I can't help but think generally they're not talking about the products or processes themselves, but rather the different philosophies the two production models have been associated with. For anyone to have a meaningful general discussion about it, the conflicting ideologies have to be disentangled from the production models (which are almost never mutually exclusive in the first place anyway).