Hand made vs manufactured

nongfuspring said:
Cameras, car break pads, guitars, suits - in terms of practicality and value the question is absolutely contingent on the item and circumstance.

Personally I prefer to buy things directly from the people who make them (industrially or otherwise). I know that when I hand over money to a tailor I am paying for their hard work, not the work of a marketer/advertiser/distributer/copyright lawyer/salesperson/administrator. An often misunderstood point to the arts and crafts movement is that it was a reaction not to industrialisation, but to the conditions that industrialisation aggravated; the alienation of workers from their goods, loss of worker rights, depersonalisation, the introduction of expensive administrative and managerial systems, the "capitalists" skimming worker profits, environmental damage etc. etc. For people like William Morris one of the founders of the movement, the reaction was to modernity, not the factory itself (he actually started his own mills - though according to his personal socialist ideals, a common theme in the arts and crafts movement).

Whenever I hear people talking about manufactured vs hand made, unless they're talking about something specific, I can't help but think generally they're not talking about the products or processes themselves, but rather the different philosophies the two production models have been associated with. For anyone to have a meaningful general discussion about it, the conflicting ideologies have to be disentangled from the production models (which are almost never mutually exclusive in the first place anyway).
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Beautifully put.

And of course sometimes they're buying an image of "hand made" that was created by marketers/ advertisers/ distributors/ copyright lawyers/ salespeople/ administrators.

Cheers,

R.
 
I appreciate quality, tactile and aesthetic properties of the instruments I use, from my camera, through my car, shoes, bag.
If "hand made" is required to make it a better object (I think sewing thick leather is an example) so be it. If machines and computers are the best to do the job and improve the object, so be it too...
I would rather have a very precisely produced machine manufactured camera or lens than an average or less reliable one made by hand.
and as Roger as pointed out manu-factured etymology is "hand made"...
 
Roger Hicks said:
The question is, where do you start to define "machinery"? A guitar would be a good example. No-one is going to cut down a tree with an axe, hand-saw and adze the wood, mine, smelt and cast the metalwork (never mind making the strings)... "Hand assembled" would be a better term. My "hand made" boots were machine stitched...

Cheers,

R.
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Its about layers of abstraction if you use the machinery in your hand like a sewing machine then it is still hand made as your hand is directing the machine. So your handmade boots are still handmade if a machine stitches them so long as the machine is directed by the human hand.
If you load the pattern a computer program and have a laser cutter cut the leather while you go to the lavatory that is no longer hand made.

So it isn't the tools, it's the actual direction of the machine with the hand, hand assembled is hand made IMO irrespective of how the parts are produced
 
'Manufactured' or 'handmade' for me would, like many here it seems, depend entirely on the item itself.

As a child born in the UK in the early 70s I've spent far too much time at the road side with my parents and sister whilst our 'Friday afternoon' British Leyland Allegro refused to budge to overlook the joy of jumping into a Robot built Mazda knowing it will simply get you to where you want to be, always. I also had a Triumph Spitfire and GT6 at one point or another and both had more character than the Mazda MX5 I had for a while but both required me to get my hands under the bonnet far more often than on the wheel, which as someone with no taste for tinkering and no ability for handcraft made it a miserable experience more than the joy it could, very occasionally, be. Whereas a tailored suit, designed and made to hide the flabby bits and make you feel great over an off the hook 'First Court Appearance' suit (as David Shepherd TopMan's head of marketing called their suits back in 2001) would be something I'd be far more willing to pay out for.

Which is kind of my second, albeit slightly obvious point, it also depends on the quality of the handmade item and who the crafts person is i.e. are they any good. I can make stuff by hand but you'd be a fool to try and use it. Homer Simpson's spice rack always come to mind when I think about making something.

spicerack_zpsb882a4a8.jpg
 
Photo_Smith said:
Its about layers of abstraction if you use the machinery in your hand like a sewing machine then it is still hand made as your hand is directing the machine. So your handmade boots are still handmade if a machine stitches them so long as the machine is directed by the human hand.
If you load the pattern a computer program and have a laser cutter cut the leather while you go to the lavatory that is no longer hand made.

So it isn't the tools, it's the actual direction of the machine with the hand, hand assembled is hand made IMO irrespective of how the parts are produced
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Following from what Roger said, I think it's certainly true the term "handmade" is a concept mostly made up by marketers.

Photosmith, I think what you've made a bit painfully obvious through your continued arguments over what is or isn't handmade is that handmade is a relative term, is a hand assembled laser cut chair a handmade item? Is a laser cut hand woven cloth an industrial item? How 3d does a painting have to be before it becomes a sculpture? When you bake a loaf of bread, does the oven make it or do you? The terms handmade and manufactured aren't mutually exclusive, and just like any adjective it requires a lot of context before it becomes at all relevant to any discussion at all.

This thread seems like a bizarre continuation of that other ridiculous one, albeit this time with the explicit intention of debating which red herring is better than the other. Count me out.
 
OurManInTangier said:
'Manufactured' or 'handmade' for me would, like many here it seems, depend entirely on the item itself.

As a child born in the UK in the early 70s I've spent far too much time at the road side with my parents and sister whilst our 'Friday afternoon' British Leyland Allegro refused to budge to overlook the joy of jumping into a Robot built Mazda knowing it will simply get you to where you want to be, always. I also had a Triumph Spitfire and GT6 at one point or another and both had more character than the Mazda MX5 I had for a while but both required me to get my hands under the bonnet far more often than on the wheel, which as someone with no taste for tinkering and no ability for handcraft made it a miserable experience more than the joy it could, very occasionally, be. Whereas a tailored suit, designed and made to hide the flabby bits and make you feel great over an off the hook 'First Court Appearance' suit (as David Shepherd TopMan's head of marketing called their suits back in 2001) would be something I'd be far more willing to pay out for.

Which is kind of my second, albeit slightly obvious point, it also depends on the quality of the handmade item and who the crafts person is i.e. are they any good. I can make stuff by hand but you'd be a fool to try and use it. Homer Simpson's spice rack always come to mind when I think about making something.

spicerack_zpsb882a4a8.jpg
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That sums up my feeling about handmade.

I have in the past bought hi fi from small British companies where the amps/turntables were assembled by hand.
Did it make a difference ... not really you just payed more .
I`d describe it more as a conceit rather than a concept dreamed up by marketing men.
 
A weaver on todays modern looms is still as much of a craftsman as a waterloo vet banging away on a flying-shuttle hand loom ... everything is new technology at some time
 
nongfuspring said:
Photosmith, I think what you've made a bit painfully obvious through your continued arguments over what is or isn't handmade is that handmade is a relative term, is a hand assembled laser cut chair a handmade item? Is a laser cut hand woven cloth an industrial item?
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In that case it would be a handmade chair assembled from parts? i can't understand how that could confuse someone?

nongfuspring said:
How 3d does a painting have to be before it becomes a sculpture?
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I can't see what that has to do with the discussion.

nongfuspring said:
When you bake a loaf of bread, does the oven make it or do you?
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If you made the bread by hand then put it in the oven it is still handmade, the oven can't change that.

nongfuspring said:
The terms handmade and manufactured aren't mutually exclusive, and just like any adjective it requires a lot of context before it becomes at all relevant to any discussion at all.
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I never suggested that they were. Just handmade items are made by hand. I've never ascribed more value to the handmade process or got hung up on why-just pointing out a simple definition. Making things by hand can also be part of an industrial process-again I've never stated they are mutually exclusive.

nongfuspring said:
This thread seems like a bizarre continuation of that other ridiculous one, albeit this time with the explicit intention of debating which red herring is better than the other. Count me out.
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The problem people here have is they confuse the use of technological tools with being handmade-the two are not exclusive, it isn't about 'stopping the clock' its about using your hands to manufacture a product directly with no abstraction layers in between.

You might have a different idea of handmade, the value of handmade and what that term personally means to you.
To me it's something fashioned or assembled by hand with or without technology, the key is the tactile feedback and direct use of hands on the materials that make the product.
 
...and that is what I don`t understand about this discussion.
At what point do you decide to stop the clock.
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It seems to me that you can stop the clock anywhere you like. Time continues to pass for the rest of the universe, though. ;)

What I have noticed is that things are often "improved" to become less effective for their intended use. Some cameras are like that. In my opinion, the Leica M3 was improved into cameras that were less effective, because that beautiful viewfinder was cheapened. Sony did something very similar when they improved the R1 into the Alpha series, parting company with a superb lens and a viewfinder system which I find superiour to anything that's come after.
 
... I'm not sure the standard model requires time to be a linear continuum ... that's just our perception of it, or lack thereof
 
The work of a craftsman does have a higher value. Mass industry and mass production changed the value and the quality of what is produced. The worker is very often exploited, and there are some ethical questions about it. The goal is not the quality of the product anymore but the profit only.
So, I do prefer something hand made or made with tools from a craftsman; I am assuming he selected better materials and given a specific attention and dedication to HIS work.
 
Sparrow said:
... I'm not sure the standard model requires time to be a linear continuum ... that's just our perception of it, or lack thereof
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My grt grandfather (born Wetherby 1807) was a coachman and postillion rider.

It was a grim day when they invented a braking system for the carriages .
A skilled coachman used his skill and experience to slow down and brake the horses not some artificial aid.

Then came the railways of course ...
 
If the quality of design, materials and assembly is high, then the extent to which something is "handmade" or "manufactured" (however these terms are defined) doesn't really matter much, in my book. Some may take pleasure from the fact something was made by a particular person; others may simply appreciate that the item works well, and reliably, however it was made.

I will say this -- this thread has certainly given folks an opportunity to indulge in a huge amount of brand-name-dropping, whether about cameras, guitars, or other equipment. ;)
 
people who seek meaning in inanimate objects, products, goods and services are inherently existing in a meaningless life
 
Didn't get to read the whole thread, but to me, handcrafted excellence represents the extend of what we as humans can accomplish, much like athletes push the body to accomplish amazing feats. Ego for being human I guess, but it is meaningful to me.
 
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