Hard developer for soft paper

bence8810

bence8810

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Hello there fellow printers,

I have gotten myself a nice stock of expired Forte baryta papers and they are all graded and soft.
If you are familiar with Forte papers, it is the "Special" grade which is the 2nd from the bottom. There were 5 grades, Soft / Special / Normal / Hard and Extra hard.

This means I can't use my contrast filters and most images will turn up somewhat softer than what I'd like.

Spoke to the man who sold it to me in Hungary and he said I should use a hard developer. He gave me the contents I need to mix to get a liter's worth of developer but I am not very confident in managing to source these chemicals here in Japan and wouldn't know how to measure it etc.

Is there anything commercially available that I could use as an additive to my developer to make it harder?

I also heard that I could mix my developer to make it stronger (less water when diluting) and overexpose the paper and then pull from the developer prematurely. All of this does not sound too good to me to be honest :)

I usually like high contrast images and don't mind losing the mid tones as a result.

Thanks,
Ben
 
Dear Ben,

High alkalinity and plenty of hydroquinone will increase contrast. I'd be inclined to mix my own because I am not sure how to modify existing developers but I'd suggest a couple of pellets of sodium hydroxide and a level coffee-spoon of hydroquinone per litre of working strength developer. Dissolve thoroughly before use.

Cheers,

R.
 
Over exposing and pulling early will make a lower contrast print. Extending development until development is complete like 4-5 minutes will increase contrast slightly.

Best to mix your own. I don't know of any hard developers for paper.
 
Tetenal Dokumol is a "Hard developer" about one grade worth of contrast increase. Also old paper and lith developer like Moersch Easylith give great and very beautiful results.
 
x-ray said:
Over exposing and pulling early will make a lower contrast print.

Best to mix your own. I don't know of any hard developers for paper.
Click to expand...

Thank you x-ray and all for the suggestions!
I just read somewhere that Kodak's Dektol is also a hard developer that can give half a grade contrast over a normal developer. Is this valid?

The recipe I got to make a hard developer for Forte is the following - an original Forte recipe:
Code: 
Water (52C)     750ml
Metol              1.25g
Sodium Sulfite     22.5g
Hydroquinone     6g
Sodium Carbonate     30g
Potassium Bromide     0.5g
Water     up to 1L

Are any of these ingredients hard to come by?

What do you suggest I use for measuring? 0.5gramms sure sounds like a small quantity! What trays do I use to measure these things? I guess at that small amount, I need some surface that will empty nicely into the mix without leaving any leftovers.
I do realize I sound silly - chemistry never was something I enjoyed but printing is so here I am!

Thanks a lot,
Ben
 
From my experience, a paper can be made softer, but not harder. Dokumol, e.g., will develop to completion (at 1+5) faster than Dektol (at 1+2), but not to a higher contrast. Benzotriazole will help with fogged paper, and, in that case, provide a subjective contrast increase.

Anyone proposing silver bullet X or Y, please post following: one strip of paper exposed through step tablet, then cut in two halves, one in "ordinary" dev and the other in "super" developer. Re-unite the two halves, scan together, post.
 
BernardL said:
From my experience, a paper can be made softer, but not harder. Dokumol, e.g., will develop to completion (at 1+5) faster than Dektol (at 1+2), but not to a higher contrast.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, I've always heard there were harder and softer developers. Anyways, there's only one way to find out - to try!

BernardL said:
Benzotriazole will help with fogged paper, and, in that case, provide a subjective contrast increase.

Anyone proposing silver bullet X or Y, please post following: one strip of paper exposed through step tablet, then cut in two halves, one in "ordinary" dev and the other in "super" developer. Re-unite the two halves, scan together, post.
Click to expand...

My paper isn't fogged, that was the first thing I tested for as the paper is about 20 years old. No fogging what so ever and real deep blacks on a room-light exposed piece.

The test you mention is exactly what I'd do, just need to find some recipe or a stock developer I can get my hands on here in Japan to try.

The Edwal sounds good but I won't order a bottle of liquid from the US, it calls for trouble with customs.

Hope Ned get's back with what he means Dektol at 1:0 - and what that would achieve.

Thanks,
Ben
 
Ben, Ned's talking about stock strength Dektol, no dilution after you mix it. It might raise contrast but most likely it will just bring the print to completion faster.

I've never heard of a hard working print developer but have used several sift working. Selectol soft being one. There are hard working film developers like D11 & D19 but they aren't suitable for paper.

I use LPD for prints and will have to look on the can. Usually higher dilutions make warmer prints not harder or softer.

I have a photo lab index and will check it for a solution later today. I don't know where you can source the chemicals where you are. There are several sources like Photographers Formulary and Bostic and Sullivan in the US. There are several other companies here but I don't know costs and restrictions.
 
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?50845-High-contrast-paper-developer

Heres a link that might help. As to measuring, you'll need a very accurate chemical or similar scale. I use an electronic scale made for measuring charges of gun powder for loading rifle and pistol cartridges. It in grains and grams and a very accurate. The one I use was sold by Dillon but there are others available. Check through shooting supply houses. Also you probably will find them on eBay and should be able to find the chemicals on eBay as well.
 
I just checked and B&H sells all the necessary chemicals. Elon and Metol are the same and Sodium Carbonate can be purchased at the grocery store under the name "washing soda" made by Arm & Hammer. Do not confuse this with baking soda "sodium bicarbonate".
 
bence8810 said:
That's interesting, I've always heard there were harder and softer developers.
Click to expand...

Not really - the gradation is a property of the paper, and as paper is supposed to be developed to the max there is nothing much that can be done to increase that, while many things cause a decrease. Incomplete development aside there are developers that do not develop to deep black (but usually to a brown, blue or green hue), which will result in a (visually) lower contrast print. And there are some that fog significantly if you attempt to develop to completion - which will again reduce contrast.

For a while I had a lith film processor I got for free from a friend, which I used with paper - due to its high fixed transport speed it had to be operated with the original lith developer (in combination with lith film that delivers about the hardest result in photography, with no tone between black and white left). This sped up paper development to less than 30s for completion, but it did not increase contrast by any significant amount.
 
Yodobashi in Shinjuku has many of those chemicals in stock, washing soda (sodium carbonate) on the other hand I had ordered online here in Japan when experimenting with Caffenol.

Yodobashi also has semi-analytical balances (hundeds of milligram range) if I remember correctly.
 
sevo said:
Not really - the gradation is a property of the paper, and as paper is supposed to be developed to the max there is nothing much that can be done to increase that, while many things cause a decrease. Incomplete development aside there are developers that do not develop to deep black (but usually to a brown, blue or green hue), which will result in a (visually) lower contrast print. And there are some that fog significantly if you attempt to develop to completion - which will again reduce contrast.

For a while I had a lith film processor I got for free from a friend, which I used with paper - due to its high fixed transport speed it had to be operated with the original lith developer. This sped up paper development to less than 30s for completion, but it did not increase contrast.
Click to expand...
On further thought, I think you're right and my earlier post was probably wrong, simply because of development to completion. On the other hand I have seen formulae for variable contrast paper developers. I suspect they were wrong too, or that they may have worked with some papers, decades ago, when (it seems) papers were sometimes not developed to completion.

Wonder if there's any future in intensifiers/reducers? Probably not, for the same reasons (finality).

Cheers,

R.
 
Dokumol does increase the contrast and gives deeper blacks. There are both soft and hardworking paper developers. Selenium toning also somewhat increases the contrast. Also lith developers do increase the contrast quiet a bit. But not all lith developers are suitable for paper developing and are only compatible with Film showing little increase in contrast with paper.
Special is about Grade 2 + fogging = about grade 0.5 to 1
so even if you use something like Dokumol the contrast increase will be minimal. Lith is still your best bet but it will look very different than a standard bw print.
 
DominikDUK said:
Dokumol does increase the contrast and gives deeper blacks. There are both soft and hardworking paper developers.....


Special is about Grade 2 + fogging = about grade 0.5 to 1
Click to expand...

Hi,

Now I am very confused. Some say there aren't and some that there are hard developers that increase contrast.

If agree with Grade 2 but definitely not grade 0.5-1. How could I tell if my paper is fogged?

Here's a print from yesterday. Negative is rather contrasty but still it wouldn't look like this at grade 1 I think.

Ben

EDIT: - Uploaded the image properly this time - as opposed to attaching it from the phone. The top one is the one I printed on Forte BSP-4 and the bottom one is on Fuji AM variable Contrast paper using Filter 3. The fuji print is scanned in and the Forte is just snapped with an iPhone.
There is an obvious difference between the two but would you say the Forte is 0.5 or 1 when talking about grades?

ContrastTest_Forte.jpg


ContrastTest_Fuji.jpg
 

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bence8810 said:
Hi,

Now I am very confused. Some say there aren't and some that there are hard developers that increase contrast.
Click to expand...

Well, there doubtlessly are soft developers, whether by being too slow, too much toned or too strongly fogging - relative to these, neutral tone developers that achieve full development in acceptably short time and without fogging can claim a contrast increase. But that is not quite that significant - even Tetenal only claim that Dokumol achieves "almost one grade" contrast increase on paper. Strip the manufacturer's euphemism, and less than half a grade is more realistic...
 
Think about film development for a moment and what the sensatometry curve looks like for normally developed / contrast. By extending or reducing development the slope of the curve changes. There are hard and soft developers for film such as D19 for contrasty negs and ABC pyro for lower contrast long scale negs. Paper emulsions aren't that different than film. Contrast in film is altered by the amount or absence of Metol or HQ in the developer. Other agents lke bromide restrain, carbonate accelerates and sulfite preserves and etches silver.

I see no reason why hard and soft paper developers can't work. There have been several widely used soft developers like Selectol soft and amidol over the years.
 
x-ray said:
Think about film development for a moment and what the sensatometry curve looks like for normally developed / contrast. By extending or reducing development the slope of the curve changes. There are hard and soft developers for film such as D19 for contrasty negs and ABC pyro for lower contrast long scale negs. Paper emulsions aren't that different than film. Contrast in film is altered by the amount or absence of Metol or HQ in the developer. Other agents lke bromide restrain, carbonate accelerates and sulfite preserves and etches silver.

I see no reason why hard and soft paper developers can't work. There have been several widely used soft developers like Selectol soft and amidol over the years.
Click to expand...
One word: developing to finality.

"Finality" implies "gamma infinity", the maximum possible contrast of which the emulsion is capable. Not since the early DIN standard has this been how films are developed (and then, only for the DIN standard, not for printing). This is why I think sevo is right and I was in my first post wrong.

Cheers,

R.
 
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