Has Leica alienated photographers?

Has Leica alienated photographers?

  • Yes, I feel alienated by Leica's High Prices

    Votes: 170 38.1%

  • Maybe, sometimes yes, sometimes no

    Votes: 86 19.3%

  • No, I want Leica quality and that means Leica prices

    Votes: 122 27.4%

  • YES, I am alienated by Leica targeting bling marketing (late poll addition)

    Votes: 68 15.2%
  • Total voters
    446
Roger Hicks said:
While I completely agree with your price comparison arguments, I simply cannot understand the highlight. Against what or whom do these prices have to be defended?
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Aloha Roger,

I meant that those cameras and their prices were indefensible in the context of the OP's argument that Leica has alienated photographers. The argument could be made that these cameras were clearly aimed at the collector's market rather than the normal photographer. I believe that from that point of view, the argument that those special products aren't alienting IS pretty indefensible.

I may be biased in my opinion because I'm a working stiff who has to make a living from my cameras, and obviously anybody who treats their work as a business would most definitely not see a massively marked up Hermes limited edition anything as a good investment in equipment meant to actually turn a profit, since the "normal" edition Leica product is just as functional.

I don't mean to discount the opinions of others who appreciate their gear as both functional and objects of beauty, and covet those things for those reasons. I just don't share that perspective. My Leicas are the sharpest tools in my toolbox, and it's that simple. No offense intended to the collectors out there. 🙂

You're also right that many other people spend money in ways that would be obscene, and I totally agree it's a matter of perspective.

Maybe using the word "obscene" was a little bit too melodramatic in this case...but as a working stiff who wished Leicas products were just a little bit more affordable, I can't help but think that by dividing it's production lines into fragments producing limited edition stuff, Leica does end up increasing its overall costs of production in ways that impacts how much ALL of it's stuff costs. And yeah, from that point of view I feel like it doesn't seem like Leica is doing right by the working folks looking for the best tools they can find. This can be a little troubling to working folks who use this equipment, especially since we all know that Leica's success was built on the foundation of working stiffs and their cameras.

Then again, as others have pointed out, Leica is one of the few companies turning the kinds of profits that it is, and of course eventually some of those profits turn into R&D budget so Leica can continue to innovate. And that benefits us all, of course. I'm a photographer not an economist, so I wouldn't pretend to know the business reasons for Leica's decisions with the limited edition stuff. It's just my point of view from the outside looking in. 🙂

And jaapv, you're right. It's always been a tradition of Leica's to make crazy editions of their cameras. By saying as of late, I meant to limit the scope of my discussion to a few recent examples.
 
ian_watts said:
I (and others) prefer the look of scanned film (the "hybrid" process) to "fully digital".
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I'm one of those.

To me, the hybrid film/scan workflow combines the best of both worlds. I get the tonality/latitude/contrast of film with all it's beautiful "flaws" (e.g., grain) and the fast workflow of digital. Two hours after I shot a roll of film, the digital files are ready. Plus the costs are small: for the price of one MM body, I can shoot, develop & scan 100 rolls of B&W film/year for the next 15 years.
 
honozooloo said:
. . . I meant that those cameras and their prices were indefensible in the context of the OP's argument that Leica has alienated photographers. The argument could be made that these cameras were clearly aimed at the collector's market rather than the normal photographer. I believe that from that point of view, the argument that those special products aren't alienting IS pretty indefensible.

. . . we all know that Leica's success was built on the foundation of working stiffs and their cameras.
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First para: Like you, I've used Leicas as part of earning my living for a long time: around 40 years in my case. I'd say the exact opposite about "alienation", though. I'm delighted that Leica sells a few very expensive special editions, because it keeps them in business. That's about as un-alienating as it gets.

Second para: No, I don't think so. Well, not exactly. Leicas have ALWAYS appealed to rich amateurs who just wanted a good camera. Years ago, a Linhof dealer told me that their sales were about 50/50 to working photographers and rich amateurs. I'd be astonished if sales of Leicas to professionals were proportionately higher than that (or even as high). It's just that Leicas are very good cameras that have been used by a number of very good photographers, and people imagine that if they buy a Leica, some of that will rub off.

"Special editions" I don't really understand, though I've known a few people who buy them. Mostly, as far as I can see, "special editions" are rather like "complicated" watches: a (mildly) collectible reserve of value. In other words, they're bought as much as jewellery as for functionality; and why shouldn't a camera manufacturer make jewellery as well as cameras?

If you want to see a company that's kept afloat by amateurs while pretending to sell principally to professionals, look at Nikon or Canon.

Cheers,

R.
 
No I don't feel alienated by Leica as I don't feel they or any other company owes me anything nor do I feel that I owe them anything. I buy and use things based on whither or not I feel their worth what I get out of them and this includes how much I enjoy using a product and not just the results it produces. As far as Leica prices go well I generally buy used so I don't really feel one way or the other.
 
Lss said:
Is there a price difference worth valuing?
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He is using "expensive" in a pejorative sense (overpriced), which is not common in the US, so it makes little sense to some of us.

"Expensive" is relative however to income, while "a lot of money" is more neutral, in my understanding. Thus a brioche may not be expensive to Marie, but expensive to a peasant, but does it cost a lot of money, compared to say bread?

I guess one's milage may vary when it comes to income vs expensive?

To me a Leica digital, is both expensive, and requires a lot of money to own. Is it overpriced, IMO, not by much (10~15%), but it the current luxury branding strategy of stores, literature, etc does add to the cost of production. However it would be unreasonable for Leica to take a low cost web-only profile.
 
Roger Hicks said:
"Special editions" I don't really understand, though I've known a few people who buy them. Mostly, as far as I can see, "special editions" are rather like "complicated" watches: a (mildly) collectible reserve of value. In other words, they're bought as much as jewellery as for functionality; and why shouldn't a camera manufacturer make jewellery as well as cameras?
Click to expand...

I owned two, of one of the more tasteful special editions, the Leica M6 TTL Millenium, I got them at cost, with the lenses, and at the time clearly I was demented, and thought I might use them.
 
photomoof said:
"Expensive" is relative however to income, while "a lot of money" is more neutral, in my understanding.
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For me, anything expensive costs a lot of money and anything that costs a lot of money is expensive. They are both relative to (my) income.
 
looks to me like leica always has been relatively expensive. the stuff is designed and produced in germany, not in singapore or china; labor is much more expensive; engineering is much more expensive. the stuff is very well made (or used to be, to hear some current owners talk). the Ms and screw mounts are way fun to use; lovely instruments. but they are not necessary to make a sound photograph.
if you love 'em and can afford 'em without starving the baby, go for it.
 
Please note key word in OP's Question

Please note key word in OP's Question

Please note the OP is questioning whether "Photographers" are being alienated by high Leica prices.

He is not asking if Posers, Wannabes or Blingstars are alienated by high Leica prices.

This is an important distinction as today's Leica is arguably catering not to photographers but to this 2nd group thanks to such truly incredible
(a carefully chosen exact word) gifts from the photography gods as the Lenny Kravitz pre-brassed LEICA M-P 'CORRESPONDENT' SET...
 
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