Has Leica alienated photographers?

[pgk]

Whilst new Leica prices are high so are resale prices. When a similar question was asked elsewhere a year or so back I did a rough estimate of what my Leica gear had cost me, in terms of depreciation and actuality, and found that relative to my other camera gear it had cost quite a bit less. Digital camera bodies all depreciate: Canon 1DS cost was ~£5.5k new - today they are a couple of hundred - contrast the Leica M8 which cost ~£2.6k new and they still sell for £0.7~1k - which has lost more value?. And Leica lenses depreciate very little indeed (I've sold a few for more than I paid and upgraded as a result).

And if new cost is too high then used is a bit better and if you don't mind poor cosmetics then there are good bargains to be had. I bought a battered but warranted M9 for a huge discount because of the high price of a replacement top plate - its badly dented and presumably wasn't considered cost-effective to replace - the camera had though, been serviced by Leica and carried a full year's warranty from them. An advantage of high part costs perhaps?

So do I feel alienated by their high prices? Of course not. In terms of cost viability they beat many other cameras. Outlay can be initially high but life is about trade-offs isn't it?

 

[______]

What is a Leica in this context?

• ...It's also a company that provides great long-term service...
• If it is brand promise beyond the status thing, then it really comes down to the same long-term service aspect discussed above and the overall quality of the product that can be expected. The latter is a "need".

I read a lot of horror stories about the length of time it takes Leica to service a camera - months and months it seems.

 

[Gregm61]

I read a lot of horror stories about the length of time it takes Leica to service a camera - months and months it seems.

4 months seems the norm for M9 sensor replacement. Mine took from the end of January to mid-May. I just sent a 90mm f2 Summicron to be 6 bit coding last week. Should be there tomorrow and we'll see.

I've seen a few posts about extended times. Not "a lot", as in dozens/etc. All you have to do is go to any forum at DPreview and it doesn't take too long to find someone complaining about the customer service or service department of the related brand. You know about those situations what people say, which may or may not be the full story.

 

[______]

So 4 months seems like a reasonable amount of time for a warranty repair to you?

 

[jaapv]

4 months seems the norm for M9 sensor replacement. Mine took from the end of January to mid-May. I just sent a 90mm f2 Summicron to be 6 bit coding last week. Should be there tomorrow and we'll see.

The delays by the sensor replacement are mainly due to the sensors being delivered in batches and Leica being dependent on the sensor maker. However, the solution is simple: get Leica to call the camera in when the sensor is in stock and a repair slot planned. In the meantime one can keep using it, spotting the corrosion out in postprocessing and the turnaround will be one or two weeks.
My personal experience with Leica Wetzlar is that being in touch and planning properly will reduce the repair times considerably.

 

[Gregm61]

So 4 months seems like a reasonable amount of time for a warranty repair to you?

I had another body to use (M262) so I was fine. Anyone else using jaapv's suggestion and scheduling an appointment for an M9 sensor replacement probably would not go 4 months without a camera.

Of course, I know complaining in an internet forum is the simplest thing to do.

 

[Luke_Miller]

The delays by the sensor replacement are mainly due to the sensors being delivered in batches and Leica being dependent on the sensor maker. However, the solution is simple: get Leica to call the camera in when the sensor is in stock and a repair slot planned.

Leica NJ offers this service. They will reserve a spot in the queue and send a pre-paid UPS shipping label when it is time to send it in. While some have been successful in getting one month turnarounds this way it is a deviation from the normal first-in first-out repair process. As such it requires customer care to intercept the item on receipt otherwise it goes into the normal four month (for sensor replacement) queue. If that should happen customer care (at least in my case) was unable/unwilling to honor the repair reservation. For those going this route I suggest contacting customer care as soon as UPS tracking shows it has been delivered so they can retrieve it before the normal repair process captures it.

 

[jaapv]

And then there is always express service (albeit not cheap) and registered professionals will go through a fast channel.
In general the hiccups are in the parts supply line though, and are mostly due to Leica being just a small customer.
Which does not mean that service should not be improved - significantly. I'm sure that Leica is aware of this - or at least they should be.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Is it all about the gear pricing and service?

Does Canon have Canon Galleries like Leica has?
https://en.leica-camera.com/Leica-Galleries/About-Leica-Galleries
This is all about photography and photographers on Leica side.


Or Nikon blog like Leica has?
Where all Leica photographers are treated equally, no matter if they have latest Leica digital gear or film M2!
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2016/11/21/vintage-thoughts-leica-m2/

And for "normal" pricing and modern digital I respect what Panasonic and Leica are doing together for many years.
I could get not so expensive, nice looking, capable, compact digital camera, with decent IQ and images screaming "Leica lens"...

 

[______]

I had another body to use (M262) so I was fine...Of course, I know complaining in an internet forum is the simplest thing to do.

Having a spare Leica body available so as not to be inconvenienced by a four month turnaround time on a warranty repair makes it easy to take the high road.

 

[Emile de Leon]

Best to have 3 or 4..maybe 5 or 6..Leica M digital bodies..just in case..
Problem all solved..
Do this and you will never be alienated by Leica..
Hahaha..!

 

[seany65]

I haven't got the money to buy a Leica system, so I'm alienated by their prices.

If I had the money to buy a leica sysem, I would be alienated by the 'two frames in the viewfinder' thing. It's so annoying.

 

[Gregm61]

Having a spare Leica body available so as not to be inconvenienced by a four month turnaround time on a warranty repair makes it easy to take the high road.

It would be great of the independent techs worked on these digital bodies, but we're pretty much locked into Leica. I sent two lenses to DAG last week, a 135mm Tele Elmar-M that needed the focus adjusted, and a 21mm Elmarit ASPH to be 6-bit coded. He contacted me today, saying they'd be done by the end of the week.

 

[mfunnell]

I haven't got the money to buy a Leica system, so I'm alienated by their prices.

I haven't got the money to buy a Bentley so I'm alienated by their prices.

I haven't got the money to buy a Ford so I'm alienated by their prices.

I haven't got the money to buy a Leica. But I do have a Leica already (two, in fact). So am I supposed to be alienated or not 😕

...Mike

P.S. I also haven't got the money to buy a Toyota. But I do have a Toyota already. So I guess the same question applies.
P.P.S. I've had the M3, and the Toyota, for a long time. The M3 isn't that much older than the Toyota.

 

[seany65]

Postd by mfunnell,

"I haven't got the money to buy a Leica. But I do have a Leica already (two, in fact). So am I supposed to be alienated or not 😕"

Hmmm, did you find them on a bus, borrow them and forget to give them back or did you have the money to get them but don't have enough money now?

You seem to be a little confused about the idea that not being able to afford something means you are alienated by the price of it, even if you like it and want one.

 

[mfunnell]

You seem to be a little confused about the idea that not being able to afford something means you are alienated by the price of it, even if you like it and want one.

Then I must be alienated by a great many things - because there are a great many things I like and I want (in a rather abstract way; knowing I can't afford them) and so by that reasoning I must be very alienated indeed.

In fact, though, I don't wander around feeling alienated by much at all. It doesn't really bother me that I can't afford tropical islands or private jets or even, slightly more down to earth, a Leica S system (which I'd like but certainly can't afford).

It doesn't even bother me that some can afford such things while I can't (some of the mechanisms by which that happens are rather concerning - but that's a different story). I'm also quite aware that if I have some money and spend it on one thing I want, that likely precludes obtaining other things I want. But it would seem, um, ungrateful to feel alienated by that, given that I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford discretionary spending on things such as photography - even if there is equipment I want but can't afford.

In fact it makes me feel fortunate, not alienated. And quite aware that others aren't so fortunate.

...Mike

 

[seany65]

@mfunnell, I'll bet most things you can't afford aren't overpriced by quite a way like Leica stuff often is, and that's what I mean about 'alenation caused by price'.

 

[mfunnell]

@mfunnell, I'll bet most things you can't afford aren't overpriced by quite a way like Leica stuff often is, and that's what I mean about 'alenation caused by price'.

Overpricing and underpricing

These two words are used to say that a price is too high or too low in regard to the expectations of an individual or a group. It is a matter or comparison to personal expectations or/and some comparison tool as a chart, table, formula that is agreed upon and set forth as a common viewpoint by those people. Overpricing and Underpricing statements are valid if related to the used comparison origin but irrational without such a basis. More often than not, these statements are purely emotional without any valid reference.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_value#Overpricing_and_underpricing]

I know it's from Wikipedia, but it seems fair enough to me.

...Mike

 

[seany65]

@mfunnell, I know what you mean and can sgree to some extent, but if a thing, with all production, wage, energy and transport costs included in the 'basic cost' is £2000, and then is put on the market for £6000, would you not consider it to be a little overpriced?

That is just an example with no reference to any actual product.

 

[mfunnell]

@mfunnell, I know what you mean and can sgree to some extent, but if a thing, with all production, wage, energy and transport costs included in the 'basic cost' is £2000, and then is put on the market for £6000, would you not consider it to be a little overpriced?

That is just an example with no reference to any actual product.

Well, in (IMO, highly over-simplified and unrealistic) theory, if the market is efficient and competitive (ie. not a real market) then market price will match market value if all units available in the market sell. If they don't, market price will move swiftly to equilibrium at market value either by existing sellers moving their price or competitors moving into the market at a lower price-point thus moving the market price to market value. How do you know what market value is? Well, it is the market price automagically reached once the above mechanism brings the efficient, competitive market into equilibrium. Therefore, by definition, the units being priced cannot be overpriced because market price must be the same as market value. QED. :bang::bang:😱:bang: [Note that when the number of units available is 0 - because nobody wants to produce them - then the market is at equilibrium with market price and market value also being 0.]

If you can't drive enormous truckloads of caveats through that mess of assumptions then you're not really trying!

But the problem remains - how do you determine that market price exceeds market value (the condition for something being overpriced) if the only way to determine market value is the above mess? If you don't accept the above (who would?) then you have to come up with some other way to determine market value or come up with a bunch of explanations around markets being not-competitive or not-efficient or not-in equilibrium -- and have others accept your method or explanations (good luck with that 🙄🙄😕).

...Mike