Has Leica alienated photographers?

[uhoh7]

I when I joined the forum digital Leica was totally out of reach, and so were the modern lenses.

Now you can find a M9 for 2200 and 28 cron for 1800.

Heaven 🙂

 

[jaapv]

Well, in (IMO, highly over-simplified and unrealistic) theory, if the market is efficient and competitive (ie. not a real market) then market price will match market value if all units available in the market sell. If they don't, market price will move swiftly to equilibrium at market value either by existing sellers moving their price or competitors moving into the market at a lower price-point thus moving the market price to market value. How do you know what market value is? Well, it is the market price automagically reached once the above mechanism brings the efficient, competitive market into equilibrium. Therefore, by definition, the units being priced cannot be overpriced because market price must be the same as market value. QED. :bang::bang:😱:bang: [Note that when the number of units available is 0 - because nobody wants to produce them - then the market is at equilibrium with market price and market value also being 0.]

If you can't drive enormous truckloads of caveats through that mess of assumptions then you're not really trying!

But the problem remains - how do you determine that market price exceeds market value (the condition for something being overpriced) if the only way to determine market value is the above mess? If you don't accept the above (who would?) then you have to come up with some other way to determine market value or come up with a bunch of explanations around markets being not-competitive or not-efficient or not-in equilibrium -- and have others accept your method or explanations (good luck with that 🙄🙄😕).

...Mike

Isn't it more simple to say: "If it is too expensive it won't sell. Leicas do sell." ?

 

[user237428934]

@mfunnell, I know what you mean and can sgree to some extent, but if a thing, with all production, wage, energy and transport costs included in the 'basic cost' is £2000, and then is put on the market for £6000, would you not consider it to be a little overpriced?

That is just an example with no reference to any actual product.

Your estimationis rubbish and you know it, so why post it?

 

[mfunnell]

Isn't it more simple to say: "If it is too expensive it won't sell. Leicas do sell." ?

But it's quite possible that Leicas are overpriced but sell anyway (because they operate in a market or market segment that is inefficient or uncompetitive or both). It is also quite possible that Leicas are "correctly" priced and sell at theoretically correct market value. It's difficult to know, definitively, which is so.

So I can't reject an assertion that Leicas are overpriced. I can, however, decide not to worry about it (and I didn't and I don't). I didn't worry when I couldn't afford the Leica I wanted - I couldn't afford it so I didn't buy it. And I didn't whinge that I couldn't afford it "because it's overpriced". I don't know whether that's true or not (and I don't think anyone else can know either). It just didn't matter: either way I couldn't afford it.

Then an uncle left me some money with instructions to "spend it on something self-indulgent" - so I did. I bought the Leica camera I wanted because I could (albeit briefly) afford to and I wanted to. It may be that the Leica I bought was overpriced - I didn't care and still don't. It represented value to me at the price I paid and still does. Regardless of any theoretical or emotional conclusion about "overpricing".

...Mike

 

[:: Mark]

Isn't it more simple to say: "If it is too expensive it won't sell. Leicas do sell." ?

Yes, but I am not sure what this has to do about alienating photographers? It is perfectly possibly for Leica to be immensely profitable without selling scarcely a single camera to a "photographer" (whatever that might mean today!).

For the M series, it is clear that Leica's primary market is not people wanting to take pictures. You just need to look at their marketing, special editions and product design (for example, using inconvenient but nostalgic detachable baseplates on digital-M's, and the lack of practical features such as integrated sensor cleaning or adjustable diopters that are ubiquitous from other manufacturers).

Leica's pricing, marketing, support and product design can and should be compared to other companies. It is that comparison that I think gives photographers some pause, not whether or not there is market demand.

 

[jaapv]

What nonsense. Most if not all digi-Ms I know are hard working cameras, and I only have to have one look at any of the dedicated forums to find proof of it. A considerable number of LUF members shooting M are working professionals, most of the others serious amateurs, for instance.

 

[jsrockit]

Ah, the old if I can't afford it, it must be bad trick. 😉

 

[:: Mark]

What nonsense. Most if not all digi-Ms I know are hard working cameras, and I only have to have one look at any of the dedicated forums to find proof of it.

Of course - but I do not see that as being in any way inconsistent with what I wrote. I use the M7 and M-262 daily, as well as several other systems.

I really like the M-series, but I can not say that I am enamoured of Leica's digital implementation. For example, a shoot last week came back with several hundred images that needed cleaning for dust in the sky despite no lens changes and a clean sensor at the start.

This should not be an issue with any modern camera that costs $4000 and up...

 

[uhoh7]

What nonsense. Most if not all digi-Ms I know are hard working cameras, and I only have to have one look at any of the dedicated forums to find proof of it. A considerable number of LUF members shooting M are working professionals, most of the others serious amateurs, for instance.

In fact their use has grown exponentially from 2006 when the M8 appeared. Not since the heyday in early 60s are Leica images so widely seen.....

And what keeps film alive? M6, M4, Barnack etc (of course not alone 😉)

The growth of the voigtlander lens line is testimony to heath of the system.

M262 is cheapest new body, inflation considered, in Leica history, since the CL.

Leica is inviorgating photographers, not alienating them. When the economy of scale is considered, Sony cameras and lenses are higher margin than anything Leica today.....with certain red things excepted LOL

Which doesn't mean they are perfect. The ridiculous size of the SL lenses, a case in point.

 

[jaapv]

Shouldn't it? You would not like the alternative. As is well known the M cameras need an ultra-thin cover glass in front of the sensor, to the extent that Leica had to resort to an IR coating instead of a sandwich on the M9 which caused corrosion problems and to a glass that was so thin that too wide a tolerance led to cover glass cracks on the M. Sensor cleaning is vibration of the cover glass. Broken sensors all over the place...
IBIS will add 4 mm to the body thickness (see the R7) which would lead to customer screams audible from Wetzlar to New York.

Of course - but I do not see that as being in any way inconsistent with what I wrote. I use the M7 and M-262 daily, as well as several other systems.

I really like the M-series, but I can not say that I am enamoured of Leica's digital implementation. For example, a shoot last week came back with several hundred images that needed cleaning for dust in the sky despite no lens changes and a clean sensor at the start.

This should not be an issue with any modern camera that costs $4000 and up...

 

[jaapv]

In fact their use has grown exponentially from 2006 when the M8 appeared. Not since the heyday in early 60s are Leica images so widely seen.....

And what keeps film alive? M6, M4, Barnack etc (of course not alone 😉)

The growth of the voigtlander lens line is testimony to heath of the system.

M262 is cheapest new body, inflation considered, in Leica history, since the CL.

Leica is inviorgating photographers, not alienating them. When the economy of scale is considered, Sony cameras and lenses are higher margin than anything Leica today.....with certain red things excepted LOL

Which doesn't mean they are perfect. The ridiculous size of the SL lenses, a case in point.

Indeed yet Sony writes red figures and Leica black 😉 Better a red lens than a red ledger 😀

 

[Daryl J.]

They haven't.
That prices mean I cannot afford their gear is irrelevant.
That I must tell myself "No" is irrelevant.
That someday I hope to be able to is called enthusiasm. And is called a goal.

 

[:: Mark]

Shouldn't it? You would not like the alternative. As is well known the M cameras need an ultra-thin cover glass in front of the sensor,...

I think that is an assumption, not a given. And even without a piezo shaker there are things that would improve the dust situation, such as sensor coatings (which I believe were improved on the 262) and dust traps to capture debris.

Another peeve is that damn baseplate. The 262 does not tether (USB), so if you are shooting on a tripod the only way to access the SD card and battery is to completely remove it from the tripod mount. The *only* reason for this is marketing nostalgia.

And lastly, wake-from-sleep is slower on the M-262 (with the fastest 32GB SD card I could buy) than on any other camera that I use. If Canon consumer DSLRs could do this properly 10 years ago, why can't a modern contemporary Leica flagship that is historically famed for its responsiveness? Fortunately, I can get several hours shooting with sleep disabled, so there is a viable work-around for this by carrying several batteries - even if charging is awkward.

None of these issues are show-stoppers by any means - but given that other lower-end camera manufactures get panned for issues like these, why should Leica get a free pass - particularly given the price point?

Indeed yet Sony writes red figures and Leica black 😉 Better a red lens than a red ledger 😀

It is good that they are no longer about to go bust! But as a photographer I would far rather that Leica's profit was driven by the performance and capabilities of its cameras, rather than by branding and marketing.

 

[Godfrey]

This thread is still going on? sheesh.

Leica hasn't alienated me at all. They've made the two cameras I really really wanted and no-one else did ... the SL and the M-D. Yes, they're expensive; if I couldn't afford them, I wouldn't buy them. Big deal. I could, I did: I'm delighted with them and now I don't need the lot of other cameras I have.

If you're alienated because prices of high quality products are high, well, that's your problem. Buy something else that you are happy with...and stop complaining about what you're not happy with and don't own anyway.

G

 

[jaapv]

I think that is an assumption, not a given. And even without a piezo shaker there are things that would improve the dust situation, such as sensor coatings (which I believe were improved on the 262) and dust traps to capture debris.

Another peeve is that damn baseplate. The 262 does not tether (USB), so if you are shooting on a tripod the only way to access the SD card and battery is to completely remove it from the tripod mount. The *only* reason for this is marketing nostalgia.

And lastly, wake-from-sleep is slower on the M-262 (with the fastest 32GB SD card I could buy) than on any other camera that I use. If Canon consumer DSLRs could do this properly 10 years ago, why can't a modern contemporary Leica flagship that is historically famed for its responsiveness? Fortunately, I can get several hours shooting with sleep disabled, so there is a viable work-around for this by carrying several batteries - even if charging is awkward.

None of these issues are show-stoppers by any means - but given that other lower-end camera manufactures get panned for issues like these, why should Leica get a free pass - particularly given the price point?



It is good that they are no longer about to go bust! But as a photographer I would far rather that Leica's profit was driven by the performance and capabilities of its cameras, rather than by branding and marketing.

Not an assumptiom - a valid technical reason. 😉
Actually there are upsides to the baseplate: The camera can easily take (professional) accessories like the RSS baseplate and L-plate, the multifunction grip, the normal grip. And be honest, is fiddling with a little door on the bottom when the camera is on a tripod not even more unpractical than pulling it off and having easy access?*

*Full disclosure: I use a Leicatime baseplate with battery/card door because the M240 locks the baseplate in by the tripod screw. As Ihave a handstrap and Arca plate permanently attached, I need ir

The wakeup time is indeed weird. You may well find that a 16 GB card is faster than a 32 GB one. Some cameras react differently to different cards. Mine does 1.2 sec on Lexar Professional 1000x 16 GB, and 1.9 sec on Panasonic Gold 16 GB. Go figure...

 

[uhoh7]

Indeed yet Sony writes red figures and Leica black 😉 Better a red lens than a red ledger 😀

They are making a bundle on the A7 line and lenses, where their margins are far higher than Leica.

But it's a monster with a million products, obligations, and issues.

If you just compare profit from E mount to profit from M mount cameras and lenses, Sony is killing Leica, I'd bet. 🙂

I don't consider that a plug for Sony, just it's almost certainly the case. Economy of scale + very high lens prices compared to Canikon.

But my next body will likely be a Kolari A7rii, since the sensor is so far ahead of Leica right now, and a thin filter will fix the issues with M. I'll keep the M9 of course 🙂

The latest techart adapters allow good AF with M, LTM and all the major mounts. AF is certainly not my favorite, but can be useful in many situations.

Shooting the RX1rii (same sensor as r2) has opened my eyes: uncompressed raws are gorgeous at ISO6400 and you can hammer them in LR. My plain A7 is a joke by comparison.

At base ISO the M9 totally rips so I'll spend my money on something more versatile than a newer M as companion body, though I certainly admire the newer Ms.

For a clean used A7rii + Mod it should run about 2800. AF adapter another 350. Not cheap but tip of the spear FF for almost any lens.

Zoomar by unoh7, on Flickr

 

[seany65]

Your estimationis rubbish and you know it, so why post it?

It's not 'rubbish', it's just a 'made up' example to show what I mean.

 

[jaapv]

They are making a bundle on the A7 line and lenses, where their margins are far higher than Leica.

But it's a monster with a million products, obligations, and issues.

If you just compare profit from E mount to profit from M mount cameras and lenses, Sony is killing Leica, I'd bet. 🙂

I don't consider that a plug for Sony, just it's almost certainly the case. Economy of scale + very high lens prices compared to Canikon.

But my next body will likely be a Kolari A7rii, since the sensor is so far ahead of Leica right now, and a thin filter will fix the issues with M. I'll keep the M9 of course 🙂

The latest techart adapters allow good AF with M, LTM and all the major mounts. AF is certainly not my favorite, but can be useful in many situations.

Shooting the RX1rii (same sensor as r2) has opened my eyes: uncompressed raws are gorgeous at ISO6400 and you can hammer them in LR. My plain A7 is a joke by comparison.

At base ISO the M9 totally rips so I'll spend my money on something more versatile than a newer M as companion body, though I certainly admire the newer Ms.

For a clean used A7rii + Mod it should run about 2800. AF adapter another 350. Not cheap but tip of the spear FF for almost any lens.

Zoomar by unoh7, on Flickr

What does camera size matter with THAT lens?😱

 

[seany65]

Ah, the old if I can't afford it, it must be bad trick. 😉

Hello jsrockit,

If you're referring to what I've posted so far, then you've misunderstood me. There are a huge number of things that I can't afford that I don't think are overpriced.

 

[CameraQuest]

I think its fair to say some Leica owners are alienated, some are not.

Perhaps even more interesting is that we are all even discussing this,
because regardless on which side you are on,
we are all discussing it because we presumably believe Leica is important enough to matter.

I honestly believe all Leica fans owe Kaufman thanks and respect for saving Leica.

Yet sadly, IMO things seem to have gone off course now, with often questionable products. LOL.
A RED lens? New brassed BP cameras as they leave the factory? SL lenses the size of bazookas? Words fail me.

Here is hoping that somehow things at Leica get back on course soon.

Stephen