Has Leica alienated photographers?

[jaapv]

Ach, Stephen, what new there? I see you making this post in 1930 about snake- and lizard skin gold-plated cameras.😀
These things do no harm, they take up little or no resources to develop and bring to the market and generate quite a bit of money.
As for the red ApoSummicron, I strongly suspect that there is quite a bit of German humour in that lens. The German sense of humour is sometimes hard to follow for the rest of the world, as we all know...:angel:

 

[Roger Hicks]

Ach, Stephen, what new there? I see you making this post in 1930 about snake- and lizard skin gold-plated cameras.😀
These things do no harm, they take up little or no resources to develop and bring to the market and generate quite a bit of money.
As for the red ApoSummicron, I strongly suspect that there is quite a bit of German humour in that lens. The German sense of humour is sometimes hard to follow for the rest of the world, as we all know...:angel:

Dear Jaap,

That's the real question: where's the harm?

It seems to exist only in the minds of those who are plus royalist que le roi, or more Catholic than the pope, and probably don't buy new Leicas anyway.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Godfrey]

I carried my SL and its 'bazooka' 24-90 lens to TDay dinner yesterday. It performed magnificently. The lens was not the least bit of a problem; I'm very glad to have a lens of this quality and balance to use for that situation.

I just pulled out the M-D, fitted the 'Lux 35, stuck the 'Rit-M 75 in the bag, and am heading off to meet a friend for a photo walk as dawn approaches.

I somehow think that those who are complaining so much are too focused on the machinery and not enough on what to do with it.

G

 

[jsrockit]

I somehow think that those who are complaining so much are too focused on the machinery and not enough on what to do with it.

I think the complaint is price no?

 

[:: Mark]

That's the real question: where's the harm?

Harm is the wrong word, but what these bling items do is to elevate the brand, positioning it as something upmarket and exclusive. This in turn allows Leica to sell *photographically* poorer products at higher prices, because their emphasis is no longer on the photographic function but on the camera as a luxury item. Current digital M's are hardly state of the art and they are expensive - but you have little choice if you want to use the excellent lenses and an optical rangefinder.

Now it may be that this is the only viable way for a company like Leica to survive - it is quite a small niche, after all. But while this is good for Leica it is difficult to argue that this is good for a photographer (beyond allowing Leica to exist). Photographically, functionality and value are surely more important than perceived notions of status or wealth derived from ownership of a camera?

From the comments in this thread, it seems that there are some people that do place value in the exclusivity and high cost of Leica equipment. That pricing does not exclude them from being good photographers, but it does exclude many potential good photographers from becoming Leica users - and that I think is a bad thing.

[And I have been out for five hours today taking pictures with the M7 - surprisingly it is possible to comment on this thread and also worry about actual photographs... :-]

 

[Roger Hicks]

.. . Photographically, functionality and value are surely more important than perceived notions of status or wealth derived from ownership of a camera? .. .

Dear Mark,

You are of course quite right. So show me a more functional, better value, full-frame rangefinder camera.

They cost what they cost. I wish they didn't, but I'd rather that they're expensive than that they cease to exist. If the price of existence is red Summicrons, I don't see a problem.

Battery life, for example, is a disgrace. But it must be quite difficult to build a better battery, because if it were easy, someone would make better, cheaper batteries for RF Leicas.

Cheers,

R.

 

[gb hill]

I think its fair to say some Leica owners are alienated, some are not.

Perhaps even more interesting is that we are all even discussing this,
because regardless on which side you are on,
we are all discussing it because we presumably believe Leica is important enough to matter.

I honestly believe all Leica fans owe Kaufman thanks and respect for saving Leica.

Yet sadly, IMO things seem to have gone off course now, with often questionable products. LOL.
A RED lens? New brassed BP cameras as they leave the factory? SL lenses the size of bazookas? Words fail me.

Here is hoping that somehow things at Leica get back on course soon.

Stephen

As well as thanks to Mr Kobayashi for making M mount as well as SM lenses at a good price to fit those Leica bodies. Just think, what if there was no alternative.

 

[jaapv]

Dear Jaap,

That's the real question: where's the harm?

It seems to exist only in the minds of those who are plus royalist que le roi, or more Catholic than the pope, and probably don't buy new Leicas anyway.

Cheers,

R.

Indeed, Roger.
In some cases there is even benefit for the everyday user, like the LCD-less M, which saw the light of day as a "silly" special edition.

 

[jaapv]

Harm is the wrong word, but what these bling items do is to elevate the brand, positioning it as something upmarket and exclusive. This in turn allows Leica to sell *photographically* poorer products at higher prices, because their emphasis is no longer on the photographic function but on the camera as a luxury item. Current digital M's are hardly state of the art and they are expensive - but you have little choice if you want to use the excellent lenses and an optical rangefinder.

Now it may be that this is the only viable way for a company like Leica to survive - it is quite a small niche, after all. But while this is good for Leica it is difficult to argue that this is good for a photographer (beyond allowing Leica to exist). Photographically, functionality and value are surely more important than perceived notions of status or wealth derived from ownership of a camera?

From the comments in this thread, it seems that there are some people that do place value in the exclusivity and high cost of Leica equipment. That pricing does not exclude them from being good photographers, but it does exclude many potential good photographers from becoming Leica users - and that I think is a bad thing.

[And I have been out for five hours today taking pictures with the M7 - surprisingly it is possible to comment on this thread and also worry about actual photographs... :-]

I do wonder whether Leica does sell *photographically* poorer products. Up till now the only other DRF that ever made it to the market was the RD1, which sold in a limited edition, and was obsolete the moment the M8 came out. Even their current products. I see few if any competitors for the Q and the SL and the M is still looking for its peer. Yes, the price tag is hefty for the average buyer, but the proof of the pudding etc. seems to establish that Leica is providing exactly the thing that their photographic target audience demands.

 

[______]

Yes, the price tag is hefty for the average buyer, but the proof of the pudding etc. seems to establish that Leica is providing exactly the thing that their photographic target audience demands.

Yes, lots of limited edition cameras for the collectors market in Japan.

 

[uhoh7]

What does camera size matter with THAT lens?😱

You dis Bartender for a similar line in his Leica gripes over the years, yet in reading your countless posts everywhere, I never saw you take a point from anyone. 🙂

That is not my only lens, silly. The point is a A7r2.mod will shoot everything from SEM18 to Zoomar 600 at 42mp up to ISO 6400 better than anything, right now. AF options for M are unique on such a rig.

Would it kill you to concede that might be true?

That's not to say a M would not be better for many or most, or that M is better built, or that a 240 could probably do that monster some real justice.

What's hilarious is one broken record calling out another 😉

 

[user237428934]

That is not my only lens, silly. The point is a A7r2.mod will shoot everything from SEM18 to Zoomar 600 at 42mp up to ISO 6400 better than anything, right now. AF options for M are unique on such a rig.

It can have the best image quality in the world but it's still a Sony with a silly usabilty and a lousy menu interface. Shooting fun for me is zero. Emotional value zero. Had one, threw it away (not really, but gave it back to the dealer after one week)

 

[______]

Well, if it is the emotional value of the camera that is important to you, by all means buy whatever makes you feel good. No one should deny you that. I never did feel much affinity for Minoltas or Mamiya Sekors, for example, so I know where you are coming from.

 

[gb hill]

Even walking into a Leica owned store alienates photographers. Too Beverly Hills looking to me.

One can only thrive off the elite for so long. Fuji will put them out of business within 15 years if that long.

 

[user237428934]

Well, if it is the emotional value of the camera that is important to you, by all means buy whatever makes you feel good. No one should deny you that. I never did feel much affinity for Minoltas or Mamiya Sekors, for example, so I know where you are coming from.

Emotional aspect was my 2nd aspect and not the 1st aspect. If using a camera makes no fun at all and it is always in the way, how can I take good photos with it?

 

[xayraa33]

There are so many great cameras around of past and present, including old Leica models so who cares if the present Leica firm has alienated photographers.

Photographers will always find the tools to make photographs, even with a pinhole camera and glass plates and collodion and silver nitrate.

 

[______]

Battery life, for example, is a disgrace. But it must be quite difficult to build a better battery, because if it were easy, someone would make better, cheaper batteries for RF Leicas.

The customer base for replacement Leica batteries is small. The number of Leica owners that would put a non-Leica battery in their Leica camera is even smaller.

 

[jaapv]

You dis Bartender for a similar line in his Leica gripes over the years, yet in reading your countless posts everywhere, I never saw you take a point from anyone. 🙂

That is not my only lens, silly. The point is a A7r2.mod will shoot everything from SEM18 to Zoomar 600 at 42mp up to ISO 6400 better than anything, right now. AF options for M are unique on such a rig.

Would it kill you to concede that might be true?

That's not to say a M would not be better for many or most, or that M is better built, or that a 240 could probably do that monster some real justice.

What's hilarious is one broken record calling out another 😉

Totally puzzling. Whatever did I say that made you leap to Sony's defense? I have several myself... Did you really expect to post an image of a lens like that and have nobody comment on its size?

 

[______]

Emotional aspect was my 2nd aspect and not the 1st aspect. If using a camera makes no fun at all and it is always in the way, how can I take good photos with it?

I always considered having fun as an emotional response, and therefore thought them one and the same.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, lots of limited edition cameras for the collectors market in Japan.

I rather doubt that digital cameras have a lasting collector's value. More like novelty items, IMO.