Has the M9 killed the Leica film camera?

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Pickett Wilson

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Just looking at the unsold Leica film cameras in the classifieds and on Ebay, despite some great prices.

Whats up with that? Have folks decided to buy those used M8's? Go for the M9's?
 
At current M9 prices, I rather doubt it.

There've been occasional incoming tides of Leicas for a while now, even before the M8 was just a rumor. perhaps a few more than that now. I am noticing a fair uptick in used M8s, though. Make of that what you will. :)


- Barrett
 
My read is people are funding an M9 through culling some film bodies.

Will Leica stop building RF film bodies, when the Custom Order reach Zero for several months. My guess is about a six months from now. Six months earlier than they (leica) thinks.

B2 (->
 
Thankyou for your concern, but all of mine are still working.

Used the M3 with an Uncoated 5cm F1.5 Sonnar this weekend, along with a 1956 KMZ J-3 converted for close-focus. Still accurate, no need to worry about my Leica's.
 
Brian, if you use 'em, you are exactly right. I'm just thinking about all the folks who have grown accustomed to buying them, messing with them, and then selling them for the same price they paid or more. Looks like those days may be becoming a memory.
 
Pickett: Of course, the pleasant flip side of this is that those "undervalued" film-based Leicas stand a better chance of winding up in the hands of people who've been seriously jonesing for a Leica, and would actually use the things, but couldn't come up with the scratch to acquire one until now. That's my hope, anyway.

(Myself, I'd love a clean user M7 for, say, $1100; ain't happening anytime soon...)


- Barrett
 
I'd sell my D700 kit to help purchase a M9 before I'd sell my Ms.

As for no more production of M film bodies. That would be a sad day indeed.
 
The reality is the economy is still going down...Ebay has reported declines in total sales online. Leica cameras are not the first choice of most consumers to start with. So in the end "no" the M9 is and will not kill film Leica's sales. If anything it will remind current users why they should buy a M& or MP before they stop producing those models.
 
Look at the current prices. $4400 for an M7 or MP. The identical cameras that cost $2400 in 2002-2003. In a time when inflation has been at an all-time low, and German automakers like Mercedes, BMW, Audi and VW have not raised prices. The MSRP on a 2010 E-Class is almost identical with what it was in October 2003...and the 2010 is a completely redesigned car. There is such a big supply of used M film bodies, most of which are near-mint, that I don't have a hard time understanding why sales of new ones would be nil, even if there were no M9 or M8.
 
Pickett Wilson said:
Brian, if you use 'em, you are exactly right. I'm just thinking about all the folks who have grown accustomed to buying them, messing with them, and then selling them for the same price they paid or more. Looks like those days may be becoming a memory.
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I think this is a function of economy more than Leica introducing the M9. I'm one of those folks that have used my M's and sold them after a few years and made money. I looked for bargains and bought more then did the same again and again.

Leica prices are like house prices, they reached unrealistic highs and the bubble popped. They're back or getting closer to what they're really worth. Now if you want to see prices skyrocket then watch if Leica does drop the film line. Even if that happens figure there are at a minimum there are 2,000,000 M bodies in circulation. How much is demand vs the number of bodies out there. My guess is prices will skyrocket on film bodies for a while then they will continue to go for minty and rare bodies not the average run of the mill user. As an example look at the value of original MP's, model B's, 50 f1.2 Noctilux, Reporter cameras and 4 digit A models. There will always be collectors that have to have one of everything and in new condition whatever the price.
 
My understanding is that there is reasonably steady demand for new M7 and MP bodies from China and Japan. What the level of that demand is though I don't know.
 
To my mind it's a bit like this.
The arrival of the Voigtlander Bessa range of RF's must have eaten into Leica film camera sales a bit but more probably enabled a lot people to get into RF who would never have bought a new Leica M7 or MP. In terms of output the Bessa is pretty much up there with the Leica - just doesn't have the same aura.
If Epson (or Voigtlander) brought out a spec'd up RD-2? that was also "pretty much up there" in terms of output it would also eat into Leica's M9 sales a bit but again, would bring people into digital RF who would never buy an M9 and who weren't worried about the "aura".

So Leica would be left as a very small niche manufacturer of maybe 4-5 camera models - both film and digital. Could it survive like that? Yes, assuredly.
Just think of Rolls Royce or perhaps even more appropriately, Morgan Sports Cars, who both exist quite well on small volume high priced specialised motor vehicles offered in a very limited range of options. There are people who will buy them in sufficient numbers to keep a small specialist operation viable. Same goes for Leica. It's just that we, the rabble, may never be able to afford or justify the purchase of such articles.
 
No. Personally, i'm not interested in a used M8 because of the crop factor and i'm not willing to save long enough to pay the M9 price to get a digital full frame. My 20 year old body was already $1100, which is a lot of money to me and still took awhile to save on its own. There's no way I could justify more than what i've already paid. I believe I will use my M6 as long as film is still sold. I'm sure i'm not the only person that feels this way.
 
If you plan to keep your film M, then it's really not an issue, of course. But something is pushing prices down and putting a lot of Leicas on the market, and it has accelerated since the introduction of the M9. Perhaps, as someone noted, people are dumping their film Leicas into the market to raise money to buy an M9 or used M8.
 
"Kill" is far too strong a characterization of the eventual impact that the M9 will have on the film M cameras. Nevertheless I'm quite certain that there will be some film shooters who will now find no technical excuses for not moving to digital.

That film photography's popularity has been precipitously and permanently diminishing is inarguable. The arrival of a good 24mm x 36mm in an M body merely gives this decline a slight shove in the niche.
 
Pickett Wilson said:
If you plan to keep your film M, then it's really not an issue, of course. But something is pushing prices down and putting a lot of Leicas on the market, and it has accelerated since the introduction of the M9. Perhaps, as someone noted, people are dumping their film Leicas into the market to raise money to buy an M9 or used M8.
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I do not think it has anything to do with the M9. I'm not sure how many people want to shoot film any more. There was a thread a while back on young film users, but any sample of people on that thread who are already reading RFF is biased. If you did want to shoot film, there are a ton of used SLRs on the market so why would you get a RF that costs a lot more. Processing costs money and if you do it yourself it still costs time. The film market is shrinking, so we know people are shooting less of it. Why would you keep your film camera then? The recent economic woes probably hastened the process. They just happened to also coincide with the introduction of the M9.

Cheers,
-Gautham
 
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