Hasselblad X2D, Just out. M11 Killer?

[Godfrey]

... I started this thread to ask a question and have been flayed for apostasy. I was wondering if I had titled it, "M11, the X2D KIller?" what the response would have been. Do you think it would have been the same?

Apostasy? Heck no, I could care less what brand camera you get damp about. What about "X2D, the Nikon Z Killer?" or "X2D, does it make every other high end camera obsolete?" Why attack the Leica M11 specifically? Why use a nonsensical question to provoke people to conjecture about something they do not yet have any experience with yet, and then criticize their opinions that do not concur with yours?

You have made your conclusions, reflected even in the posing of the question, and have not yet obtained any first hand data with the equipment you are getting damp over. This is the epitome of an enthusiast (aka "fan boy"). Good luck with that approach to evaluating the merits of your chosen current obsession.

G

 

[jsrockit]

But back to the X2D: it seems a workable size camera for folks used to a 35mm camera, especially those using the honking big Japanese ones. It has a reputation for superb imaging. It has a reputation for rugged dependability. It is faithful, trofast in Swedish. How many other cameras were used on the moon's surface? https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2019/0...d-by-nasa.html It appears to be a "git 'er done" camera with superb color and detail and all in a reasonable package. Those are the pluses for me. The downside is that it costs. And yes, my two old chestnut adages for spending money apply here: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" and "Quality is like oats. If you want clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, those are cheaper." It is a quandary.

The speed part may be where you need to focus. They are fast for medium format, but not fast compared to the high end 35mm cameras. For me, they are all faster than I need, but I am not sure what you expect. Other than that, you are right... the size is DSLR / High End Mirrorless size and that is great.

Here are some comparisons vs the M11 and the Nikon Z7.

It is still bigger, but not bad at all for medium format. The biggest thing is the added grip on the Hasselblad makes it almost twice as thick as a Leica.

I started this thread to ask a question and have been flayed for apostasy. I was wondering if I had titled it, "M11, the X2D KIller?" what the response would have been. Do you think it would have been the same?

You probably could have just said "What do you guys think of the Hasselblad X2D?" When you compare a non rangefinder to a rangefinder and call it a killer of that rangefinder on a rangefinder forum, it probably will not be received well. On any other non rangefinder or Leica forum, it could be ok...

 

[ptpdprinter]

It is the painter not the brush.

You are sounding a little schizophrenic.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I've spent more on lenses in the last year than what the M11 cost, and more on lenses the last three years than what both together cost.
I spent $350 on batteries for my M9, M Monochrom, and M8 this weekend. That should get me through the next few years.

60MPixels, 100MPixels, we had a Tyler Gyro-Stabilized camera mount for the first digital sensor that I used 40 years ago. We had a 100MPixel monochrome camera 20 years ago. It cost a lot. My mechanical engineer designed the mount for it. It was a lot of work,

http://www.tylermount.com/minigyro.html

Good news, they make a small version that would be a real benefit for these super-high resolution cameras.

The M11 does not have image stabilization, has it only for liveview. The Hasselblad, and many other camera, provide image stabilization for the actual image captured. Even for my 18MPixel M9 and M Monochrom, I open up the aperture to get higher shutter speeds. 60MPixels- any movement is going to blur the image, you need an even higher shutter speed to hand-hold. I'm surprised that a 60MPixel camera does not have it.

 

[ptpdprinter]

I've spent more on lenses in the last year than what the M11 cost, and more on lenses the last three years than what both together cost.
I spent $350 on batteries for my M9, M Monochrom, and M8 this weekend. That should get me through the next few years.

I've spent my photographic budget on supplies for making platinum/palladium prints.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

My wife spent her "expendable income" on clothing, much more than what I spent on camera gear over the last 40 years.
Most of mine went towards lenses and cameras. I can wear shorts and a T-Shirt to work.
The lenses- worth more than I paid for them, about 3x. The film cameras- some up, some down, Nikon RF's are cheap now compared to what they were 20 years ago. Leica- up, Nikon SLR- how do you end up with Five Free Nikon F's. Digital cameras- I turned $5K spent on lenses into enough to buy the M8, M9, and M Monochrom. About what they are work now, so I am breaking even after 12 years.

 

[jsrockit]

The M11 does not have image stabilization, has it only for liveview. The Hasselblad, and many other camera, provide image stabilization for the actual image captured. Even for my 18MPixel M9 and M Monochrom, I open up the aperture to get higher shutter speeds. 60MPixels- any movement is going to blur the image, you need an even higher shutter speed to hand-hold. I'm surprised that a 60MPixel camera does not have it.

Leica has said in an interview that there will not be IBIS in an M until they can fit it into true M dimensions. Also in that interview, they said also many customers want to eliminate the physical shutter. So, maybe with the M12 they will go for the stacked sensor (or maybe a sensor with a global shutter if available) to eliminate the shutter and then fit IBIS into the original M shaped body using that space?

As far as 60mp showing more movement, I just have not seen that to be the case. Sure, if you always look at 100% and there is motion blur, it will be more pronounced. However, I handhold a Fujifilm GFX-50R (50mp) at low shutter speeds and it works the same as my APSC cameras (24/26mp) camera shake wise. If anything, you can print the higher resolution photos at a smaller percentage of their true resolution potential which helps to hide noise and motion blur.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

You can also use pixel binning for the same purpose, and will not use as much space on disk.
To really get the best image possible, especially at max resolution- a tripod or other support is required.
Personal opinion- we're at diminishing return for resolution on sensors. The lens itself is the AA filter, which is a good thing.

 

[Evergreen States]

Leica has said in an interview that there will not be IBIS in an M until they can fit it into true M dimensions. Also in that interview, they said also many customers want to eliminate the physical shutter. So, maybe with the M12 they will go for the stacked sensor (or maybe a sensor with a global shutter if available) to eliminate the shutter and then fit IBIS into the original M shaped body using that space?

As far as 60mp showing more movement, I just have not seen that to be the case. Sure, if you always look at 100% and there is motion blur, it will be more pronounced. However, I handhold a Fujifilm GFX-50R (50mp) at low shutter speeds and it works the same as my APSC cameras (24/26mp) camera shake wise. If anything, you can print the higher resolution photos at a smaller percentage of their true resolution potential which helps to hide noise and motion blur.

Right. Higher resolution sensors (or increased pixel pitch or whatever the cause is) only show more motion blur at the same shutter speeds as lower resolution sensors if you're viewing at 100% or printing large. If you're printing the same size small and medium-sized prints as your old camera, you won't notice the blur. This isn't to write it off as unimportant or dismiss IBIS. Some people print large and for them it's a perfectly valid concern. One should know how to use their tools to get the results they want. But people can shoot the M11 at 36MP or 18MP if they don't feel they need 60MP of resolution and get a stop or two more dynamic range to play with.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Hopefully David Barth will hook up with me in TeamViewer and work his magic to get it working as it should.

Hoping won't get the job done. You actually need to get in touch with David Barth and make arrangements for him to fix your camera. It's been sitting on your shelf broken for months.

 

[boojum]

You can also use pixel binning for the same purpose, and will not use as much space on disk.
To really get the best image possible, especially at max resolution- a tripod or other support is required.
Personal opinion- we're at diminishing return for resolution on sensors. The lens itself is the AA filter, which is a good thing.

There was a camera club here in town. Occasionally a retired pro would be present for meetings. That tripod remark was his, too. He said it was the only way to be sure to eliminate blur. But what would he know having made a living with photos for about 50 years? Yeah, I heard it but it took me a long time to buy a tripod and a monopod. And we all know that we do not put Leicas on tripods. I think, and this is my somewhat jaundiced opinion, that it is a good idea to deal with the Leica shibboleth of how to and how not to use a Leica and just do what needs to be done to get a good photo. Just as would be done with any other camera.

In another thread there was a serious discussion that 1/60th of a second was the correct shutter speed. Seriously, that was quoted and referred to as correct. OK, and f/8.0 is the correct aperture and 3 meters the correct distance. Let's all run out and buy a box Brownie. And at the other pole is autoexposure, a program of all sorts of measurements made instantaneously to adjust the camera for a correct exposure. Usually faster and better than we can do, or at least faster and better than I can do. You guys may be faster and better than autoexposure.

And we are back at why I posed the question in the first place about the M11 and the X2D, which is the better tool? Like 1/60th, it depends. It will not work for sports shooting as 3 frames a second is not fast enough. I cannot believe I just wrote that but it is true. Does anyone remember advancing film by hand, without a lever, by turning the knob? Sheesh, and now 3 frames a second is too slow. My, how things have progressed. And it may well be too slow for wedding photography, too, and perhaps too heavy. OK, but how many on this board out of the total membership shoot sports or weddings for a living? Raise your hands. Lemme see, it looks like, four, no, five, OK, six. So for casual shooting or street shooting or whatever not requiring more than 3 shots a second is the X2D a viable alternative to the M11? I think it is a reasonable question to ask. YMMV, of course.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Leica has said in an interview that there will not be IBIS in an M until they can fit it into true M dimensions.

Does he mean having a sensor larger than the exact sensor size of approx. 23.9 x 35.8 mm? That is the size of the sensor in the M11, and is also the size of the sensor in the M9. There are some guard pixels on the ends of the rows and columns. I can imagine needing more guard pixels for electronic stabilization. BUT- using a rangefinder camera, the framelines are only accurate at 2m, as per the manual. I suspect the width of the framelines more than covers the guard area required for IBIS. You can always turn it off. At 60MPixels, it would be a nice feature to have.

The old "Shutter Speed number should not be below Focal Length" rule for hand-holding a camera is way off for digital cameras.

 

[jsrockit]

In another thread there was a serious discussion that 1/60th of a second was the correct shutter speed. Seriously, that was quoted and referred to as correct.

I think she said it was her favorite, not correct.

 

[jsrockit]

Does he mean having a sensor larger than the exact sensor size of approx. 23.9 x 35.8 mm? That is the size of the sensor in the M11, and is also the size of the sensor in the M9. There are some guard pixels on the ends of the rows and columns. I can imagine needing more guard pixels for electronic stabilization. BUT- using a rangefinder camera, the framelines are only accurate at 2m, as per the manual. I suspect the width of the framelines more than covers the guard area required for IBIS. You can always turn it off. At 60MPixels, it would be a nice feature to have.

The old "Shutter Speed number should not be below Focal Length" rule for hand-holding a camera is way off for digital cameras.

Honestly, I do not know. You know more about what is possible than me. I was thinking of how they could add IBIS as a physical unit the way I thought it is done on cameras right now.

 

[boojum]

I think she said it was her favorite, not correct.

OK, I have not gone back to the portion of the thread with this quote in it but IIRC the photographer was quoted as saying that this was her "rule" which was picked up and repeated as some sort of real insight until ptpdprinter scotched it. I was amazed that rational adults could subscribe to such poppycock. But maybe they were not rational adults. I may be wrong here, and I am wrong a lot, but AFIK there is no magic shutter speed or f-stop. My pin-headed view of all this is find something interesting, point the camera at it and press the shutter button. That is about all I know in a sentence.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

OK, I have not gone back to the portion of the thread with this quote in it but IIRC the photographer was quoted as saying that this was her "rule" which was picked up and repeated as some sort of real insight until ptpdprinter scotched it. I was amazed that rational adults could subscribe to such poppycock. But maybe they were not rational adults. I may be wrong here, and I am wrong a lot, but AFIK there is no magic shutter speed or f-stop. My pin-headed view of all this is find something interesting, point the camera at it and press the shutter button. That is about all I know in a sentence.

Not sure if you're referring to me but this is what I said in that thread:

I don't know whether Ms. Bown was being deliberately obtuse with this statement, but since I learned that she relied on this one exposure setting, I have been using it often for window lit portraits and other well-lit interior scenes. It's not magic but it is certainly helpful in those scenes. It helped give me confidence to shoot without a meter in more challenging lighting scenes than just relying on Sunny 16 outdoors and has helped my photography considerably.

Those 20th century photographers like Bown and HCB knew what they were doing.

 

[boojum]

Not sure if you're referring to me but this is what I said in that thread:

IIRC yours was one of a few. I was amazed at a flat statement of a single shutter speed. So I tried it myself. Blurs. Much of the image was fine but adults, like kids, tend to move. And 1/60th does not, or did not stop it. It was a 50mm lens on an M9, color. So I am surprised that the speed was suggested at all. Maybe blur was a desired element in Ms. Brown's photos. Maybe she was confounding people. But from my one simple experiment it is not a good idea. Kind of like the old adage about gum and church. "You can chew gum in church but it is not a good idea."

 

[jsrockit]

IIRC yours was one of a few. I was amazed at a flat statement of a single shutter speed. So I tried it myself. Blurs. Much of the image was fine but adults, like kids, tend to move. And 1/60th does not, or did not stop it. It was a 50mm lens on an M9, color. So I am surprised that the speed was suggested at all. Maybe blur was a desired element in Ms. Brown's photos. Maybe she was confounding people. But from my one simple experiment it is not a good idea. Kind of like the old adage about gum and church. "You can chew gum in church but it is not a good idea."

You have to remember you are using an M9. She may have been using very slow film. She was talking about a specific situation I would imagine...maybe her favorite situation. In the past it was not unusual to photograph at 1/60th of a second due to slow film. You used technique to handhold at this setting. I still do it today if I have to. You would have to be naive to think she built her career and her decades long portfolio of photographing famous people without ever changing her settings if the situation called for it.

 

[boojum]

You have to remember you are using an M9. She may have been using very slow film. She was talking about a specific situation I would imagine...maybe her favorite situation. In the past it was not unusual to photograph at 1/60th of a second due to slow film. You used technique to handhold at this setting. I still do it today if I have to. You would have to be naive to think she built her career and her decades long portfolio of photographing famous people without ever changing her settings if the situation called for it.

Ah, yes, color was ASA 64, high speed B&W was ASA 100 and the Tri-X came out at ASA 200. Did anyone ever explain the Tri and 200 connection? It still makes me wonder. The blur I got was 1/60 at f/8.0, ISO 320 which I naively assumed was enough for the late afternoon daylight. Aperture priority as most of us do with the M's.

Reduced in size with GIMP, otherwise SOOC, some BBQ folks. The woman is an old, old friend, the guy is her new squeeze. Her coat sleeve is in focus as is the seated woman at the left, sort of. The guy, Hunt is not. 1/60.

https://flic.kr/p/2nKWzSE
​

 

[ptpdprinter]

Some photographers can hand hold their cameras steady at slow shutter speeds better than others. Fortunately, it is a skill you can improve with better technique and practice.