Have any of you gotten a BFA in photography?

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Fireboy said:
I live in a major city and work in the ad biz. Many of the top photographers I know are not making a living taking pictures. The current economic climate along with a paradigm shift in the commerce of picture selling has drastically changed the market. Most pro-shooters need to teach classes on the side to earn a living. So I would recommend a double major as previously mentioned in photography and business or do the minor in photography followed by the 1yr teaching certificate. As a shooter, your clients won't care about your schooling, they just want to buy talent. Your business degree will help you make money.
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That's frightening. In other words, they're teaching others to do something at which they can't earn a living themselves...

I didn't know things were that bad but I'm not actually astonished. And as an addendum to my previous post, yes, the Big City may offer twice (or even ten times) the opportunities of the provinces, but 2x (or even 10x) next to nothing is still very little. Even less than I thought, from what you say.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
That's frightening. In other words, they're teaching others to do something at which they can't earn a living themselves...

I didn't know things were that bad but I'm not actually astonished. And as an addendum to my previous post, yes, the Big City may offer twice (or even ten times) the opportunities of the provinces, but 2x (or even 10x) next to nothing is still very little. Even less than I thought, from what you say.

Cheers,

R.
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What fireboy said is true. The MFA degree is required to teach college level art and the only thing an MFA does is qualify you to teach others who will need to get a teaching job to survive too. Big cities have more jobs but everyone moves there to chase those jobs so its still a gamble.
 
A worthwhile read:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=67710

An excerpt:
And to paraphrase Yoda, there is no how, only do.
Vaughn
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A friend of mine has an MFA. She teaches film and darkroom at a community college. For her personal work she uses Brownies with the lens put on backwards, Holgas, an ancient Rollei TLR and an ancient Ansco 8x10 with older lenses. She is not a gear head for sure.
 
Roger Hicks said:
When I applied -- four decades ago -- I had to prove I could draw (they weren't worried about painting) as well as take pictures.

But I chose to read law (effectively a degree in BS) instead, on the grounds that I could always learn photography in my spare time.

I have never regretted the choice, though I have never earned a penny directly from law. I have however earned a modest living from photography and writing for most of my life to date.

EDIT: Chris knows what he is talking about...

Cheers,


R.
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The F in BFA stands for BS in this context I believe ....
 
I guess I should add, that in years of hiring assistants, I've never hired anyone based on a degree. I always look at a portfolio. I then ask about the level of knowledge with several formats of digital camera, Studio Flash Gear, Photoshop Skills, Shop skills (wood, metal any knowledge of math and electronics) and languages spoken and written. Locally, Spanish and some French or Italian are a plus. Most of our delivery people speak Spanish.

It's been my experience that of the 4 schools teaching photography locally, 3 art schools, and one state college; until recently, the kids coming out of the state college knew more. For a long time these kids were the only ones who knew anything about studio lighting. My current assistant is a Brooks Grad. She also has a previous academic education in addition to her photo knowledge. Her degree from Brooks was under the old Brooks Administration, before the school was sold.

I find many of the kids looking for work today as photo assistants aren't photographers in the common understanding. They are Photoshop skilled and have digital cameras. I find their Photoshop skill level is low (in most cases) and they have little knowledge of studio lighting or of any digital format other than 35mm type APS-C.(No training with a view camera) . So, they expect to be trained at a full day rate.. $250-$350 locally.
 
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I was on the verge on jumping to do a BFA in photography and asked my mentor on this subject. His suggestion was simply if you can find a good BFA course then go for it but after some looking over and some reccommendations asked from people in the line is that generally the courses offered wasn't for for me so I was suggested this route instead:

Complete my degree in economics
which is always useful and it also informs my own work. Which I think is true my studies does change how look at photography since I do mostly "street photography"

Try to go for good photography workshops by good photographers and help to get reccommendations to help in your application for a MFA

study art history on the side as much as possible

as well as music and literature

My plan so far is to complete my degree coming june 2011 and shoot fulltime for a year before looking for a good MFA.

Which depends on faculty rather than school.
 
Roger Hicks said:
That's frightening. In other words, they're teaching others to do something at which they can't earn a living themselves...

I didn't know things were that bad but I'm not actually astonished. And as an addendum to my previous post, yes, the Big City may offer twice (or even ten times) the opportunities of the provinces, but 2x (or even 10x) next to nothing is still very little. Even less than I thought, from what you say.

Cheers,

R.
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Bad on the west coast too Roger. Many suppliers aren't keeping their stock up and my work is down by 1/3 this year. The local pro rental house just dropped their prices.

http://www.procamerarental.com/

p.
 
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when I ran out of money 30 years ago at the tender age of 22, I dropped out of an MFA film production program at NYU. I just didn't seem as though going deeper into debt during a recession (crap, that sounds familiar doesn't it?) was a good move. the problem with the film production program was you had to fund all your film work (stock, equipment rentals, processing, etc.) plus your tuition, room, board, etc. third-year students turned into fifth year students and it wasn't uncommon for people to spend $50,000 on a thesis film -- a lot of scratch in the early 80's. if you had a rich uncle or were really good at raising capital elsewhere, it was viable. if you lacked money (and self-confidence) it was disaster waiting to happen. and, then, unless you were a rare combination of talent, kutzpah and connections like Spike Lee was then, you still had to start in some menial, possibly unpaid job (mine was as an unpaid, but credited apprentice editor gig on the Fred "The Hammer" Williamson blaxploitation pic "One Down, Two to Go").

My regrets are few, though who knows what might have been.

Don't let me rain on your parade. I think the BFA program at NYU probably produced more grads who got real jobs in the industry than the grad school did. Not sure why that was or if it's changed since then.

I'd think a good BFA program in photography would be radically different. For one thing, you don't have so much to worry about so far as coming up with gazillions of dollars for equipment and supplies (even if you shoot film, it's not going by at 24 frames per second). For another, it doesn't really require fund raising skills to turn out good work (assuming you can come up with tuition). For another, it's not a collaborative art where who you hook up with is going to determine how well you can do. So, don't let my experience be a guide.

the upside: I met my wife there (in the dark in an editing class) and we've been married 27 years now.

aperture64 said:
It is the same with the film industry.
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I started an MFA in film production back in the 90's at UCLA, in one of my first classes the professorial had us answer 3 questions:

A) Who here wants to be a Director?
(We all raised our hands)
B) Who here is independently wealthy?
(5 people raised their hands)
C) Who here thinks they can win the lotto?
Prof: OK folks, if you didn't raise your hands for question B&C, take note of who did as you'll be working for them (oh so true).


Note - I didn't finish my MFA either. Film school is all about making contacts more so then making a film. I currently work for a art school. I wouldn't say this at work, but I think it's a complete waste of money to go to private art school. Stick to a good state school.

BTW - I have an MLIS now (plus the original BA in History).


Also -

1) Spike Lee made a living as color timer/grader at Duart lab till he did "She's Gotta Have It." I had to deal with him many years later when I did the preservation work on the title and got an ear full from him about the grading work. It wasn't that bad only because one of my old professors had done her MFA at NYU with him and had warned me.

2) Not all MFA programs make you pay for your grad work. Many have equipment, some even have good equipment such as UCLA. USC and AFI partially or fully pay for your thesis film. USC even has their own lab. Down side is that the school owns your work has a tendency to screw you in the long run.


robklurfield said:
when I ran out of money 30 years ago at the tender age of 22, I dropped out of an MFA film production program at NYU. I just didn't seem as though going deeper into debt during a recession (crap, that sounds familiar doesn't it?) was a good move. the problem with the film production program was you had to fund all your film work (stock, equipment rentals, processing, etc.) plus your tuition, room, board, etc. third-year students turned into fifth year students and it wasn't uncommon for people to spend $50,000 on a thesis film -- a lot of scratch in the early 80's. if you had a rich uncle or were really good at raising capital elsewhere, it was viable. if you lacked money (and self-confidence) it was disaster waiting to happen. and, then, unless you were a rare combination of talent, kutzpah and connections like Spike Lee was then, you still had to start in some menial, possibly unpaid job (mine was as an unpaid, but credited apprentice editor gig on the Fred "The Hammer" Williamson blaxploitation pic "One Down, Two to Go").

My regrets are few, though who knows what might have been.

Don't let me rain on your parade. I think the BFA program at NYU probably produced more grads who got real jobs in the industry than the grad school did. Not sure why that was or if it's changed since then.

I'd think a good BFA program in photography would be radically different. For one thing, you don't have so much to worry about so far as coming up with gazillions of dollars for equipment and supplies (even if you shoot film, it's not going by at 24 frames per second). For another, it doesn't really require fund raising skills to turn out good work (assuming you can come up with tuition). For another, it's not a collaborative art where who you hook up with is going to determine how well you can do. So, don't let my experience be a guide.

the upside: I met my wife there (in the dark in an editing class) and we've been married 27 years now.
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Freakscene said:
I have commercial diving qualifications, including experience in flux-cored and shielded metal arc welding. ...
I also have an MFA and a PhD in Marine Biology. Marty
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I would imagine that having a beer with you would become rather enlightening.
 
I will put this simply, study something else unless you never need to work because you are wealthy.
 
i guess at depends if you want to be a photographer or an artist who uses photography if the latter a bfa is good because you can do subjects from many art areas, i'm about to finish my bachelor of fine arts majoring in printmaking and i've really enjoyed being able to do photography subjects as well. This being said i don't think you need to go to university to become an artist but it is a really good way to meet people in the art world and build networks.
 
The best advice here, other than ChrisCrawfords is to get a job (apprenticeship) as a welder. Then get a job in the oilfield or pipe laying barges and you’ll be earning $200k a year with 6 months a year vacation and then you will have the time and the money to photograph what you want when you want and not have to shoot crap you don’t like just to make ends meet.
 
will-i_am said:
i guess at depends if you want to be a photographer or an artist who uses photography if the latter a bfa is good because you can do subjects from many art areas, i'm about to finish my bachelor of fine arts majoring in printmaking and i've really enjoyed being able to do photography subjects as well. This being said i don't think you need to go to university to become an artist but it is a really good way to meet people in the art world and build networks.
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I've always wondered what the distinction is here. My unkind suspicion is that 'artists who use photography' don't want to be associated with nasty, common people who earn a living. An awful lot of very good 'artists who used photography' were perfectly happy just to call themselves 'photographers', and indeed, the term 'artist who uses photography' appears to have been a late 20th century invention, apparently emanating from art schools and galleries.

It's a bit like a writer calling himself 'an artist who uses words and paper'.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Stewart,

Then there's the honorary degree awarded by Unseen University in Ankh-Morpork: Doctorum Adamus cum Flabello Dulci.

Cheers,

R.
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Ha, I wonder if they mashed the Latin on purpose ... after all these years I can only remember the rude words, and one is missing there
 
mgd711 said:
The best advice here, other than ChrisCrawfords is to get a job (apprenticeship) as a welder. Then get a job in the oilfield or pipe laying barges and you’ll be earning $200k a year with 6 months a year vacation and then you will have the time and the money to photograph what you want when you want and not have to shoot crap you don’t like just to make ends meet.
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If you want to be a welder learning how to weld is a good advice..... how many welders in the world have 6 months of and earn $200k a year? They are not many and to become one of them you probably have to have the same skills and luck as a photographer who makes $200k a year.
 
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