13Promet
Well-known
Shouldn't any kind of moderation be involved here?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Why? If you like, I'll substitute "total incompetents" for "idiots" but otherwise it stands. Why do you think I waste this much time arguing that no-one in their right mind should drive in Italy? Spite? Or an endless sequence of bad experiences? As I said in an earlier post, "Of course there are good drivers and bad in every country. It's just that in Italy, there are far more bad ones."
Cheers,
R.
ferider
Veteran
I hear you Roger but don't come to the same conclusions. I've been in Italy countless times (lived for 3 years at the Italian border, and as a visitor, as tourist and on business). I was hit myself once in a car by a police car on a chase, in San Marino which - strictly speaking - is not Italy.
Then again, the only two near death accidents that I have had were in California - caused by the other drivers, imbeciles that lied and that I had to fight in court (I won - lucky to have witnesses), one of them uninsured. Some of the worst drivers in the world can be found in the US, in my experience. Only here, road rage is sometimes fought at gun point. Before anybody flames me, most US drivers are great and know what they are doing. But for an accident you only need one bad one; which is my point really.
Also remember, Raid has lived in Europe. The biggest risks for Raid in Southern Italy are theft, car jacking and - currently - being mistaken as a fresh immigrant. And nobody here even talks about it.
Roland.
Then again, the only two near death accidents that I have had were in California - caused by the other drivers, imbeciles that lied and that I had to fight in court (I won - lucky to have witnesses), one of them uninsured. Some of the worst drivers in the world can be found in the US, in my experience. Only here, road rage is sometimes fought at gun point. Before anybody flames me, most US drivers are great and know what they are doing. But for an accident you only need one bad one; which is my point really.
Also remember, Raid has lived in Europe. The biggest risks for Raid in Southern Italy are theft, car jacking and - currently - being mistaken as a fresh immigrant. And nobody here even talks about it.
Roland.
13Promet
Well-known
If you can't get why insulting 40 millions people at once is not appropriate, I can't do much about it...
Anyway, let's get to facts.
Country--------Fatalities/100K inhab./year -----/100k vehicles/year
Italy ------------------6.1---------------------------- 7.3
USA -----------------10.6---------------------------- 12.9
India ----------------16.6 ----------------------------130.0
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
Looks like there's a large deviation between reality and your perception....
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Very likely true, especially the last. This is a major problem in parts of Europe. You know, I take it, that a Pole was recently beaten to death outside a pizza shop in Essex, apparently for speaking Polish?
As for LA/Italy, I've spent a lot more time in and around LA than I have in Italy, and had far fewer bad experiences. Live anywhere long enough, and ride/drive far enough, and you might expect some bad luck (and rotten drivers, and I'm not defending Angelenos). But to be put in fear of life and limb or at least severely dented bodywork on every visit, even if it's 48 hours or less? That's only ever happened to me in Italy.
Put it this way. I'd go back to India tomorrow, and ride there (I've covered maybe 5000 miles on Enfield Bullets). I'd NEVER take a motorcycle to Italy again.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
If you can't understand "Of course there are good drivers and bad in every country. It's just that in Italy, there are far more bad ones", there's not much I can do about that either. This is not "insulting 40 million people": it's a statement of personal experience.
What is more, fatalities are not the only measure of bad driving. Fairly clearly, I've never been killed by an Italian driver (or any other). But as I say, look at the dings and dents and scratches on Italian-registered cars parked in Italy.
Cheers,
R.
13Promet
Well-known
Stating that driving/riding in India, a place where the death/vehichle ratio is 18x the Italian one, is safer than Italy, is just plain nonsense.
I was hoping you to be able at least to get this point, but is seems far too much of a complex deduction for you
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
But that is not necessarily a measure of driving quality, but of a different attitude towards cars. In Germany, you'll generally be sued for a re-paint (and fined), if you dare to leave a paint mark on a parking car's bumper, while Italians generally consider anything that leaves only dents and scratches no accident.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I was hoping you might have a clearer grasp on the meaning of the word "insult". Or indeed that not all accidents are fatal. But (to borrow your own rude comment) this seems far too much of a complex deduction for youStating that driving/riding in India, a place where the death/vehichle ratio is 18x the Italian one, is safer than Italy, is just plain nonsense.
I was hoping you to be able at least to get this point, but is seems far too much of a complex deduction for you
Cheers,
R.
13Promet
Well-known
So are you really saying that in a place where fatalities are 18x or 1.5x compared to another place, less accidents actually take place?
How do you explain this?
Italians are more rugged than Indians or Americans?
Or we drive tanks rather than cars?
By making this connection, please also take in account that our average driving speed is about 3-4x the Indian and 1.5-2x the American one, and put E=MC2 in the equation...
Come on...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Very true. Then again, if they re-painted every time they had a minor accident, their cars would be permanently in the bodywork shop. It's not just the bad drivers whose cars get knocked about: after all, they have to hit someone, and it can't always be each other.
A simple thought experiment is that even quite a small increase in the number of bad drivers on the road can have a disproportionate effect on the number of accidents. Suppose there are 1% of really appallingly bad drivers in most countries, and 2% in Italy. Bingo! Twice as many accidents. Possibly more, because bad drivers often drive in a spirit of competition.
It is not necessary that they all be bad: it is merely necessary that more are bad. Contrariwise, let us imagine that 10% of the drivers in most countries are superb, and never cause an accident. Now let's assume that it's 20% in Italy. The fall un the number of accidents will not be commensurate with the rise in the number of accidents caused by larger numbers of bad drivers.
It is entirely possible that I've been unlucky in Italy. On the other hand, it seems odd that I have never been as unlucky in any other country. To call me stupid, and by implication a liar as well, as 13Promet has done, is not really an intelligent reaction. Then again, anger at other drivers causes a lot of accidents...
Why do people THINK I warn so strongly against driving in Italy? Pure spite? Or might it be that I've had a disproportionate number of bad experiences, and want to save others from the same problems?
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Do you mean the formua for kinetic energy, which is K = 1/2 M V2 (2 for "squared"), half the mass times the square of the velocity? 'Cos the conversion of matter into energy doesn't play much of a role in most accidents.So are you really saying that in a place where fatalities are 18x or 1.5x compared to another place, less accidents actually take place?
How do you explain this?
Italians are more rugged than Indians or Americans?
Or we drive tanks rather than cars?
By making this connection, please also take in account that our average driving speed is about 3-4x the Indian and 1.5-2x the American one, and put E=MC2 in the equation...
Come on...
Also, why are you boasting about the fact that Italians drive so fast?
Can you distinguish between accidents and fatal accidents? And are you aware that many Indian fatal accidents are wholesale slaughter, involving a crowded bus or a truck with a dozen people on board? I came upon the aftermath of an accident in India, an abandoned and badly bent bus, where literally a stream of blood had poured out of the door.
Your avatar -- a racing motorcycle -- says at least as much about you as your arguments.
Cheers,
R.
pyeh
Member of good standing
I'm with Alessandro here. Why is Roger's rampant bigotry being sanctioned in this forum?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Um... Because it's not rampant bigotry, but a factual report of my experiences driving and riding in Italy? And India and the USA and elsewhere? Why would I be a "bigot"? What have I to gain?
I've made my point. Anyone who wishes to discount it is more than welcome to do so. Anyone who wants to drive in Italy is equally welcome. I wish them the best of luck. They'll need it.
Or would you rather have only comments that said, "Italians are all wonderful drivers and never have accidents"? Let's turn it around: why do you want to exclude genuine experiences by somebody who has driven and ridden in many, many countries?
Cheers,
R.
13Promet
Well-known
Yes: according to the statistics, you've clearly been unlucky, as odd as it might seem.
And very emotional about it.
In fact, you're the only one in this thread writing insluts.
I'm just highlighting the hilarious paradox within your arguments.
Obviously, energy involved does play a role in the odds of an accident to turn out to be fatal.
Because it's reasonable to expect incompetent, faster drivers to die more often than incompenet only ones.
Especially if - as you state - Italians crash more often than Indians or Americans.
Moreover, especially if you're coming from a place where driving is much slower, it can make you feel endangered at the beginning, because it is an environment that requires to be used to, and some additional skill (or "competency", as you call it).
Yes, I can, but disconnecting the two figures up to compensate a 18x figure is quite daring (to put it mild...), statistically speaking.
But, more importantly, I would not rule out the chance of dying when estimating the safety standards of anything
Do you think that my passion for riding racing bikes on track can be anyhow logically connected to actual statistics?
In fact, you're keeping stating to be safer to drive where the odds of dying by doing it are much higher, because cars are less scratched over there
Roger Hicks
Veteran
And this is nothing to do with the equation you gave. Kinetic energy and the energy released by the destruction of matter are not the same thing. You're the one complaining about "hilarious" errors...
Your national and personal pride have been hurt. Well, bad luck. If you get angry this easily, I'd hate to be on the same road as you.
Cheers,
R.
Dralowid
Michael
For what it is worth, the secret to safe driving in Italy is never stop...or never give the impression that you might stop...or even be thinking about stopping.
This assures the right of way and respect as an equal from other drivers.
It is the tourists that cause the problems.
This assures the right of way and respect as an equal from other drivers.
It is the tourists that cause the problems.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Sort of. The point is to drive when and where possible, and in doubt negotiate by horn, screams and sign language, rather than to drive blindly and relentlessly if you believe to have the right of way. German drivers (who mostly drive to kill whenever they feel they are legally permitted to) can't cope with such a anarchic communicative system.
DanskDynamit
Well-known
Raid, take the train to Napoli and then change to Sorrento. Napoli is a lovely city that deserves a visit too.
I have driven in Italy extensively, not a problem and in fact I think I made more mistakes than the drivers I found along my way.
Italians, in general, are not "bad drivers". They drive according to the local "rules" and yes, they change lines without letting you know so what? if you keep your safety distance of 3 seconds between cars you shouldn't have any problems.
Also keep in mind Italy is one of Europe's most visited countries so you will find many tourists driving with gps not knowing really where they are going and taking sudden turns due to GPS delay.
Roger Hicks, I just added you to my ignored members list. I have no time for reading ignorant stupid comments, its a shame who you trolled a genuine post.
I have driven in Italy extensively, not a problem and in fact I think I made more mistakes than the drivers I found along my way.
Italians, in general, are not "bad drivers". They drive according to the local "rules" and yes, they change lines without letting you know so what? if you keep your safety distance of 3 seconds between cars you shouldn't have any problems.
Also keep in mind Italy is one of Europe's most visited countries so you will find many tourists driving with gps not knowing really where they are going and taking sudden turns due to GPS delay.
Roger Hicks, I just added you to my ignored members list. I have no time for reading ignorant stupid comments, its a shame who you trolled a genuine post.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
How is a report of genuine experiences "ignorant" or "stupid" or indeed "trolling"? Look in the mirror...
Or look at the comments from Dralowid and sevo too. EDIT: And Print44 in the post that follows this one. Are they also ignorant stupid trolls? Or is it in fact possible that there are disproportionately many bad drivers in Italy?
Cheers,
R.