Don Parsons
Well-known
I'm having trouble deciding on which of 3 camera's to buy. I've recently taken a job in which I'll be traveling all over the world 20 days a month, every month. (Don't say that's great, I have 2 kids I'll miss greatly.)
I want a small camera to put in my flight bag.
I've decided on either a: Panasonic LX-5
or a
Olympus e-pl1
or a
Panasonic gf1.
I'm leaning towards the oly because it has image stab. in the body, getting the kit zoom and a panny 20. It would, I hope, have better quality than the lx5. But I love the feel of the gf1. I love it's speed of autofocus. But I like the lx5's f2 lens.
Is m4/3's that much better than a PnS? I'd have a 24-90 f2 with the lx5. Money is not an issue.
Am I missing some key factor? Or would I be happy with any of them? I don't want great art, just memories of my trips, 4x6's and occasional 8x10's. I'm looking for small, convenient to use. Video is not important to me.
I know the lx5 is not out yet, but it'll be a couple months before I get it.
Has anyone used both of the other two? What are your thoughts?
I want a small camera to put in my flight bag.
I've decided on either a: Panasonic LX-5
or a
Olympus e-pl1
or a
Panasonic gf1.
I'm leaning towards the oly because it has image stab. in the body, getting the kit zoom and a panny 20. It would, I hope, have better quality than the lx5. But I love the feel of the gf1. I love it's speed of autofocus. But I like the lx5's f2 lens.
Is m4/3's that much better than a PnS? I'd have a 24-90 f2 with the lx5. Money is not an issue.
Am I missing some key factor? Or would I be happy with any of them? I don't want great art, just memories of my trips, 4x6's and occasional 8x10's. I'm looking for small, convenient to use. Video is not important to me.
I know the lx5 is not out yet, but it'll be a couple months before I get it.
Has anyone used both of the other two? What are your thoughts?
back alley
IMAGES
i have tried the gf1 and the g1 only.
hated the form factor of the gf1 and found the g1 to be an almost perfect camera (for me)...no need for video.
not having a vf was too stressful for me.
i have tried both kit lenses and the 14-45 is phenominal (panny), the 14-140 was epic but in the end it's only the 20/1.7 for me.
so, short version g1 plus 20 is wonderful!
hated the form factor of the gf1 and found the g1 to be an almost perfect camera (for me)...no need for video.
not having a vf was too stressful for me.
i have tried both kit lenses and the 14-45 is phenominal (panny), the 14-140 was epic but in the end it's only the 20/1.7 for me.
so, short version g1 plus 20 is wonderful!
Don Parsons
Well-known
How much larger is the g1 Joe?
Is it worthwhile to get a g2 instead?
Is it worthwhile to get a g2 instead?
back alley
IMAGES
if you put the finder on the gf1 they pretty much cancel each other out.
i have not followed the g2, not sure what it offers.
i have not followed the g2, not sure what it offers.
silverbullet
Well-known
Hi Don,
the solution lies in your existing hardware: a lot of your lenses that could be used very convenient with the Oly Pen E.P2 or the E-PL. After some fiddling with the manual lenses it could be that you might prefer the legacy lenses but there is no disadvantage
The in-camera stabilizer and, more important, the very fine external electronic viewfinder which provides a perfect overview and stabilizes at your forehead.
In terms of picture quality the E-PL seems to be a bit better as the E-P2, a different AA-filter maybe....
The GF1 tends to be a little bit more responsive but in real live.....?
Another cam could be the new NEX from Sony, but it's a very young system, has not so perfect lenses and a totally different UI. But a very good sensor (APS-C) but a missing viewfinder.
When you are not into lenses with different lengths as wide wide angle and/or tele the Leica X1 with an APS-C could be your choice. The picture quality is very good but you are limited with (only) 35mm equivalent to film.
Having a D300 and some Bessas and Zeiss Ikon for b/w film, my E-P2 is the always to carry camera mostly combined with the 20mm Panny.
At first I hated the Oly menue philosophy starting with my Oly 5050 but what do I need? The position "P" mainly to adjust speed and depth of view that's all. The dedicated knob for +/- values for exposures easy to use, that's it.....
Here a portrait made with the P2 and the 20mm. Pls look at the soft DOF at the aperture of appr. 3.5
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36573929@N00/4751363392/
If you want to be very lightfooted, take away the viewfinder, put the pancake and shoot like a tourist....
The only P&S cam for me would be a Ricoh GRDIII but this a totally different beast in terms of wide angle and more agressive style of shooting....
But Don, each of the discussed cams are capable. It's the art of adapting to the cams. This way could be comfortable or more frustrating.....
Sidenote: You are engaged in planes generally and old planes too.
Here one of the first shot with my Bessa R4A and the 21mm Scopar from VC. It's the old JU 52 aka Tante JU or IronAnny as I was told.
The flight was phantastic and the two swiss pilots celebrated the art of hand-made flying.....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36573929@N00/3841510135/in/set-72157621975498333/
Cheers
Bernd
the solution lies in your existing hardware: a lot of your lenses that could be used very convenient with the Oly Pen E.P2 or the E-PL. After some fiddling with the manual lenses it could be that you might prefer the legacy lenses but there is no disadvantage
The in-camera stabilizer and, more important, the very fine external electronic viewfinder which provides a perfect overview and stabilizes at your forehead.
In terms of picture quality the E-PL seems to be a bit better as the E-P2, a different AA-filter maybe....
The GF1 tends to be a little bit more responsive but in real live.....?
Another cam could be the new NEX from Sony, but it's a very young system, has not so perfect lenses and a totally different UI. But a very good sensor (APS-C) but a missing viewfinder.
When you are not into lenses with different lengths as wide wide angle and/or tele the Leica X1 with an APS-C could be your choice. The picture quality is very good but you are limited with (only) 35mm equivalent to film.
Having a D300 and some Bessas and Zeiss Ikon for b/w film, my E-P2 is the always to carry camera mostly combined with the 20mm Panny.
At first I hated the Oly menue philosophy starting with my Oly 5050 but what do I need? The position "P" mainly to adjust speed and depth of view that's all. The dedicated knob for +/- values for exposures easy to use, that's it.....
Here a portrait made with the P2 and the 20mm. Pls look at the soft DOF at the aperture of appr. 3.5
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36573929@N00/4751363392/
If you want to be very lightfooted, take away the viewfinder, put the pancake and shoot like a tourist....
The only P&S cam for me would be a Ricoh GRDIII but this a totally different beast in terms of wide angle and more agressive style of shooting....
But Don, each of the discussed cams are capable. It's the art of adapting to the cams. This way could be comfortable or more frustrating.....
Sidenote: You are engaged in planes generally and old planes too.
Here one of the first shot with my Bessa R4A and the 21mm Scopar from VC. It's the old JU 52 aka Tante JU or IronAnny as I was told.
The flight was phantastic and the two swiss pilots celebrated the art of hand-made flying.....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36573929@N00/3841510135/in/set-72157621975498333/
Cheers
Bernd
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
I'm a Leica and Bessa RF shooter but I bought a GF1 after much deliberation and seeing that I needed to get on the digital train ride at some point, if just for convenience. At the same time my daughter bought an LX3. If I were making the same decision today, after looking at the LX3 output and considering the LX5 specifications (and test images) I'd definitely go for the LX5.
I bought the GF1 because I can't stand using an LCD to compose my shots and it offered an eye level viewfinder. I also bought the kit zoom. And an m43 to M adaptor. The LX3 didn't offer the option of an EVF. Nor did the Oly at the time. And I wanted a compact body similar in size to my film RF cameras.
Conclusions.
Image quality is very good. (So is the LX3)
The EVF is adequate but only just. OK for framing, a bit dodgy for manual focus. Beats using the LCD though!
The kit zoom makes it a far from compact camera to carry around. Not a suitable travel camera unless I'm on holidays, and then I'd use film anyway.
Fitting M-mount lenses and using it in manual mode sucks and defeats most of the advantage of having a digital auto-everything camera.
Fitting a prime 20mm lens to it would defeat the object of having a range of focal lengths.
So, all in all it's a camera I've failed to "take to" and I only drag it out when I want three or four shots to email in a hurry. I'll probably sell it soon at some loss and get an LX5 but keep the EVF to go with it.
So in your situation I'd definitely go for the LX5. I've spent the last 12-15 years travelling the world on business and I have to say that once the basic technical specs are met, the pocketability of the camera is the one thing that will see you carry and use it or leave it in your bag because it's too bulky or 'not quite appropriate' for where you're going or what you're doing.
But if you really want a GF1, send me a PM!
I bought the GF1 because I can't stand using an LCD to compose my shots and it offered an eye level viewfinder. I also bought the kit zoom. And an m43 to M adaptor. The LX3 didn't offer the option of an EVF. Nor did the Oly at the time. And I wanted a compact body similar in size to my film RF cameras.
Conclusions.
Image quality is very good. (So is the LX3)
The EVF is adequate but only just. OK for framing, a bit dodgy for manual focus. Beats using the LCD though!
The kit zoom makes it a far from compact camera to carry around. Not a suitable travel camera unless I'm on holidays, and then I'd use film anyway.
Fitting M-mount lenses and using it in manual mode sucks and defeats most of the advantage of having a digital auto-everything camera.
Fitting a prime 20mm lens to it would defeat the object of having a range of focal lengths.
So, all in all it's a camera I've failed to "take to" and I only drag it out when I want three or four shots to email in a hurry. I'll probably sell it soon at some loss and get an LX5 but keep the EVF to go with it.
So in your situation I'd definitely go for the LX5. I've spent the last 12-15 years travelling the world on business and I have to say that once the basic technical specs are met, the pocketability of the camera is the one thing that will see you carry and use it or leave it in your bag because it's too bulky or 'not quite appropriate' for where you're going or what you're doing.
But if you really want a GF1, send me a PM!
jesse1dog
Light Catcher
Just got an LX-3 after some considerable deliberation.
I've a 'Clearviewer' just arrived from Gary Robertshaw and intend to fit that in the next day or so. I did wonder about the G-1 and that was my alternative.
What was the clincher? - portability.
If I want something a bit more than point and shoot the LX-3 seemed to fit the bill. I don't usually want to be cluttered up with a lot of other gear.
It's all a very personal choice - you need something convenient to your needs and suits the style of your photography.
Let us know how your thinking goes.
jesse
I've a 'Clearviewer' just arrived from Gary Robertshaw and intend to fit that in the next day or so. I did wonder about the G-1 and that was my alternative.
What was the clincher? - portability.
If I want something a bit more than point and shoot the LX-3 seemed to fit the bill. I don't usually want to be cluttered up with a lot of other gear.
It's all a very personal choice - you need something convenient to your needs and suits the style of your photography.
Let us know how your thinking goes.
jesse
PCB_RF
Established
Hi Don, ultimately you're going to have to try before you buy. You've basically got an "image quality/versatility vs. size/handling" choice, and playing with the cameras will make your choice easier. Understand that you may have other choices by the time the LX5 ships.
Things to consider and balance are:
Image quality: in good, bright light, if you're not pulling large prints or cropping heavily, LX5 IQ should be more than adequate. If you shoot a lot indoors, without flash, m4/3 will have significantly better IQ at higher ISO.
EVF: I need an EVF for outdoor use, found my LX3 nearly useless outdoors in bright light. If you need an EVF, the LX5 won't be quite as compact. Oly's EVF is better than Pany's, though I find Pany's EVF acceptable. EPL1/GF1 w/EVF is taller than a G1/G2, takes up a bit more room in your bag, and switching back and forth between LCD/EVF requires a button push, kinda clunky.
Versatility: m4/3 definitely wins here, especially the G1/G2 with swivel LCD. Need a faster lens for a trip? Oly 40/1.4 Pen lens w/adapter goes in your bag. Need a longer lens? Leica/Minolta 90/4.0 M-mount makes a killer compact 180mm tele.
Size: LX5 will always win, even w/EVF, it will also feel significantly lighter. I was always amazed how light my LX3 felt compared to EP1/GF1.
Other Choices: if you don't need an EVF and can deal with the interface, current Sony NEX has potential for better IQ in same/smaller package than m4/3. Will there be an NEX7 before the LX5 ships? GF2? GH2? EPX?
I don't see a slam-dunk here either way, depends ultimately on your needs and ultimate size/weight requirements.
Things to consider and balance are:
Image quality: in good, bright light, if you're not pulling large prints or cropping heavily, LX5 IQ should be more than adequate. If you shoot a lot indoors, without flash, m4/3 will have significantly better IQ at higher ISO.
EVF: I need an EVF for outdoor use, found my LX3 nearly useless outdoors in bright light. If you need an EVF, the LX5 won't be quite as compact. Oly's EVF is better than Pany's, though I find Pany's EVF acceptable. EPL1/GF1 w/EVF is taller than a G1/G2, takes up a bit more room in your bag, and switching back and forth between LCD/EVF requires a button push, kinda clunky.
Versatility: m4/3 definitely wins here, especially the G1/G2 with swivel LCD. Need a faster lens for a trip? Oly 40/1.4 Pen lens w/adapter goes in your bag. Need a longer lens? Leica/Minolta 90/4.0 M-mount makes a killer compact 180mm tele.
Size: LX5 will always win, even w/EVF, it will also feel significantly lighter. I was always amazed how light my LX3 felt compared to EP1/GF1.
Other Choices: if you don't need an EVF and can deal with the interface, current Sony NEX has potential for better IQ in same/smaller package than m4/3. Will there be an NEX7 before the LX5 ships? GF2? GH2? EPX?
I don't see a slam-dunk here either way, depends ultimately on your needs and ultimate size/weight requirements.
fotomeow
name under my name
the sensor size alone would rule out either the LX5 or m43s, b/c there is such a difference in IQ.
dont want to derail you, but have you considered the Panny g10 that came out recently. slightly bigger than g1, has OIS, and has a built in next generation EVF so you dont have the external EVF to put on/take off, etc.
If you are not printing much above 8X10 and dont need that feeling of manual focus control, I would go for the LX5 due to the fast f2 that you like.
If IQ is important for prints bigger thant 8x10 and/or you want the feeling of manual focus with a focus ring, then the m43 or Sony Nex5 may be the better option with 1.5 crop factor/APSC sensor. I handled one yesterday, the interface isnt as bad as it is made out to be.
good luck
dont want to derail you, but have you considered the Panny g10 that came out recently. slightly bigger than g1, has OIS, and has a built in next generation EVF so you dont have the external EVF to put on/take off, etc.
If you are not printing much above 8X10 and dont need that feeling of manual focus control, I would go for the LX5 due to the fast f2 that you like.
If IQ is important for prints bigger thant 8x10 and/or you want the feeling of manual focus with a focus ring, then the m43 or Sony Nex5 may be the better option with 1.5 crop factor/APSC sensor. I handled one yesterday, the interface isnt as bad as it is made out to be.
good luck
ywenz
Veteran
m4/3 is MUCH better than P&S.. but still a bit far from DSLR quality.
If you value manual controls, GF1 is your only good m4/3 option.
If you value manual controls, GF1 is your only good m4/3 option.
Lflex
Lflex
No need to make things more complicated than they are. You have specified the following user requirements:
I don't want great art, just memories of my trips, 4x6's and occasional 8x10's. I'm looking for small, convenient to use. Video is not important to me.
And by this, you have also defined the winner of the 3 you are considering. Even the m43 w fixed focal length pancakes are not nearly as small as the Lx5 - and the LX5 fulfills all your other requirements (and so will a LX3 for that matter).
I don't want great art, just memories of my trips, 4x6's and occasional 8x10's. I'm looking for small, convenient to use. Video is not important to me.
And by this, you have also defined the winner of the 3 you are considering. Even the m43 w fixed focal length pancakes are not nearly as small as the Lx5 - and the LX5 fulfills all your other requirements (and so will a LX3 for that matter).
douglasf13
Well-known
NEX-5. DSLR quality in small package.
cz23
-
I had an LX3 and was never satisfied, especially above ISO 200. I'm now thrilled with the GF1, 20, and 14-45. I had an EP-1, but the zoom seemed so cheap to me that I sent the kit back.
But I really think an EP-2 or GF1 and 20 1.7 and a good zoom would make an ideal travel kit. It's compact, but still offers a real camera experience, if you know what I mean. I assume either will also have higher ISO performance that the LX5, which I would want for travel. And, of course, you're buying into a system, with unlimited lens options.
As far as IQ, I've carefully tested my GF1/20 1.7 against my 5DII/50 1.4. In 12 x 16" BW prints I honestly cannot see any quality difference.
I see the value of in-body IS, especially if using adapted lenses. But I don't feel much need for IS when using the 20 and the zooms all have IS. But you can't go wrong with either m4/3 kit.
John
But I really think an EP-2 or GF1 and 20 1.7 and a good zoom would make an ideal travel kit. It's compact, but still offers a real camera experience, if you know what I mean. I assume either will also have higher ISO performance that the LX5, which I would want for travel. And, of course, you're buying into a system, with unlimited lens options.
As far as IQ, I've carefully tested my GF1/20 1.7 against my 5DII/50 1.4. In 12 x 16" BW prints I honestly cannot see any quality difference.
I see the value of in-body IS, especially if using adapted lenses. But I don't feel much need for IS when using the 20 and the zooms all have IS. But you can't go wrong with either m4/3 kit.
John
Finder
Veteran
I have made very nice 16x20 prints from my E-P1. I would never get that from my compacts. The research I did suggested Olympus was giving better IQ than Panasonic.
porktaco
Well-known
i have a great g1 with lenses that i'd love to sell you. they're wonderful little cameras.
ywenz
Veteran
The Olympus has slight better noise characteristics in RAW and significantly better looking JPEG compared to the GF1.
The theory is that the circuitry used in the E-P1 is cleaner than the GF1 which explains the differences in noise-level on RAW files
thegman
Veteran
My brother has had a GF-1 and now a Sony NEX 5, personally I much prefer the NEX. Contrary to most reviews, it's pretty useable, the interface is really not so bad, and it's very small indeed. The lens seems decent enough, although I suppose not compared to your Contax gear.
The OVF is quite nice, and accurate for framing.
If I were to go Panasonic, it would be the G1 I think, great value considering the EVF, cheaper than the GF-1 and I think the better camera.
The OVF is quite nice, and accurate for framing.
If I were to go Panasonic, it would be the G1 I think, great value considering the EVF, cheaper than the GF-1 and I think the better camera.
seakayaker1
Well-known
FWIW
The m4/3 is better than P&S, JMHO.
After looking at alternatives I selected the GF1. Fits in a coat or pants pocket with the 20/1.7 pancake lens, this also fits into a single Lowepro (1N) lens case which can be attached to your belt. I did buy the EVF for use with manual lens and comes in handy on sunny days.
A review with photos which helped me make a decision at the time I was looking can be found here: http://boxedlight.com/index.htm
Sample shots that I have taken with the GF1 can be found here: http://boxedlight.com/index.htm
Good Luck with your decison.
Life is Grand!
Dan
~
The m4/3 is better than P&S, JMHO.
After looking at alternatives I selected the GF1. Fits in a coat or pants pocket with the 20/1.7 pancake lens, this also fits into a single Lowepro (1N) lens case which can be attached to your belt. I did buy the EVF for use with manual lens and comes in handy on sunny days.
A review with photos which helped me make a decision at the time I was looking can be found here: http://boxedlight.com/index.htm
Sample shots that I have taken with the GF1 can be found here: http://boxedlight.com/index.htm
Good Luck with your decison.
Life is Grand!
Dan
~