nightlight
Well-known
Hello there,
So here's the deal, I have been looking into processing my own bw negs for a while now and today I went to Silverprint (a store in London) to get all the chemicals I need to get me started.
On my way back and after showing a friend the various stuff, she pointed out the label on the HC110 solution which essentially stated that there had been limited evidence of carcinogenic effects when using that solution. That got me thinking and browsing the web for articles on Health & Safety issues when processing your own film. An argument that seems to appear over and over again is the fact that there has not been a solid correlation between serious health hazards and photographers in general.
I've also found out that HC110 is essentially a PQ (phenidone/hydroquinone) developer.
For your interest, I've put a couple of external links:
http://www.jackspcs.com/wondphen.htm
http://www.jackspcs.com/chemdesc.htm#PHENIDONE
http://www.jackspcs.com/chemdesc.htm#HYDROQUINONE
and finally a generic article:
http://www.chicagoartistsresource.org/?q=node/14983
I suppose I have a couple of questions to the bunch of you who process your own BW film at home (without a dedicated darkroom):
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions?
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
2. Do you wear gloves?
3. Do you wear face masks?
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Thanks - sorry if I sound a bit paranoid... I've had serious health problems a very long time ago and I'm just very cautious, hopefully over-cautious.
thanks for reading and I hope to hear your replies.
clarel
So here's the deal, I have been looking into processing my own bw negs for a while now and today I went to Silverprint (a store in London) to get all the chemicals I need to get me started.
On my way back and after showing a friend the various stuff, she pointed out the label on the HC110 solution which essentially stated that there had been limited evidence of carcinogenic effects when using that solution. That got me thinking and browsing the web for articles on Health & Safety issues when processing your own film. An argument that seems to appear over and over again is the fact that there has not been a solid correlation between serious health hazards and photographers in general.
I've also found out that HC110 is essentially a PQ (phenidone/hydroquinone) developer.
For your interest, I've put a couple of external links:
http://www.jackspcs.com/wondphen.htm
http://www.jackspcs.com/chemdesc.htm#PHENIDONE
http://www.jackspcs.com/chemdesc.htm#HYDROQUINONE
and finally a generic article:
http://www.chicagoartistsresource.org/?q=node/14983
I suppose I have a couple of questions to the bunch of you who process your own BW film at home (without a dedicated darkroom):
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions?
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
2. Do you wear gloves?
3. Do you wear face masks?
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Thanks - sorry if I sound a bit paranoid... I've had serious health problems a very long time ago and I'm just very cautious, hopefully over-cautious.
thanks for reading and I hope to hear your replies.
clarel
traveller
Learning how to print
nightlight said:
First of all, don't swallow HC110 because in high concentrations most things are poisonous or carcinogenic
When I have to dissolve developers like XTOL I use the bathroom (I use the kitchen as darkroom) and wear a mask but that is not necessary when mixing liquid developers. I only wear gloves when using selenium for toning and when using some other toners I would inform myself about the risks. And I would definitely wear gloves when using pyro developers. Ventilation is no problem because you have no contact with chemical when you put your film into the Jobo or whatever you use, developing is done wherever you want and if you are concerned about fumes you only have to open the window.
Disposing the developer (not pyro) is easy, here it is allowed to pour small amounts into the sink because it is no problem for the sewage plant, with the stop I clean the toilet, it is plain citric acid. Only the fixer needs extra attention because of the silver ions which are a real PITA for the sewage plant and for the environment. Spent fixer I fill into a tank (like the ones I get with demineralized water), put some steel wool into the tank and let it stand on my balcony for some weeks. The silver gets absorbed from the steel wool in a chemical reaction and the rest can be poured into the sink. The steel wool is brought to the waste disposal site.
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MartinP
Veteran
Apart from the obvious ones of not to eat and drink the chemicals, or use the same measuring jug that you use for making your dinner with, precautions are simple and effective, or I'm not dead yet anyway.
The only precautions that you might want to take (read: 'which I bother with') using standard, current chemicals are to mix and use them away from the kitchen and away from areas visited by pets. When mixing liquid-concentrates I just put a piece of polythene on the work-surface in the utility room, with some newspaper on top to absorb any drips. The use of correctly sized containers is very sensible - it is much easier to mix a one litre quantity inside something that contains more than one litre for example.
I'm not sure if the normal household gloves are proof against the chemicals, but that is what I use - basically it is easy to avoid getting any drips at any stage of the processing and when printing you should use tongs for the paper-trays anyway (in the old days people would use bare fingers, and they lived). The only problem with rubber gloves when printing is that it makes it harder to spot any drops which may get carried over from tray to paper by accident. An answer there is always dry the gloved hands with kitchen roll, whether or not you think it is needed. I must admit that I use no hand protection when printing, only when mixing.
For powder chemicals, I mix in the same place as the liquids. Don't do it when there is a huge draft and don't stick your nose in the packets. Open the packets carefully at the last moment, then pour and mix the powders as gently as possible - although once they're in the water you have no dust problem anymore.
Follow all the manufacturers instructions about mixing order, water-temperature, volumes, storage times etc etc. For the first few tries, do a "dry run" of all the steps you are going to take, in order to avoid any awkward moments. The Ilford-Photo website has details and PDF's for all their chemicals here, which are probably similar to those from other manufacturers of course.
Remember, the reported dangerous use of such terrifying chemicals as, for example, vinegar (one sort of stop-bath) are part of the scare tactics used to sell you a £600 DSLR and a £400 pound inkjet printer......
The only precautions that you might want to take (read: 'which I bother with') using standard, current chemicals are to mix and use them away from the kitchen and away from areas visited by pets. When mixing liquid-concentrates I just put a piece of polythene on the work-surface in the utility room, with some newspaper on top to absorb any drips. The use of correctly sized containers is very sensible - it is much easier to mix a one litre quantity inside something that contains more than one litre for example.
I'm not sure if the normal household gloves are proof against the chemicals, but that is what I use - basically it is easy to avoid getting any drips at any stage of the processing and when printing you should use tongs for the paper-trays anyway (in the old days people would use bare fingers, and they lived). The only problem with rubber gloves when printing is that it makes it harder to spot any drops which may get carried over from tray to paper by accident. An answer there is always dry the gloved hands with kitchen roll, whether or not you think it is needed. I must admit that I use no hand protection when printing, only when mixing.
For powder chemicals, I mix in the same place as the liquids. Don't do it when there is a huge draft and don't stick your nose in the packets. Open the packets carefully at the last moment, then pour and mix the powders as gently as possible - although once they're in the water you have no dust problem anymore.
Follow all the manufacturers instructions about mixing order, water-temperature, volumes, storage times etc etc. For the first few tries, do a "dry run" of all the steps you are going to take, in order to avoid any awkward moments. The Ilford-Photo website has details and PDF's for all their chemicals here, which are probably similar to those from other manufacturers of course.
Remember, the reported dangerous use of such terrifying chemicals as, for example, vinegar (one sort of stop-bath) are part of the scare tactics used to sell you a £600 DSLR and a £400 pound inkjet printer......
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
I believe the warnings are so dire because they are talking about the concentrate with HC-110, nevertheless I am careful, wear nitrile gloves when processing these days, and am lucky enough to have a darkroom with ventilation. Common sense will eliminate much of the hazard- as stated above, don't drink the stuff, try not to inhale it deeply, wash your hands if they get wet.
Toby
On the alert
I think there is a small health risk involved with these chemicals but it's probably more relevant to professional darkroom technicians than amateurs who develop a relatively small amount of film. Personally I'd wear gloves and work in a well ventilated space, just as you would using gloss paint or similar.
dskphotography
Member
dont worry most soup isnt bad for ya its just the concentrated stuff that might be bad hc10 on the hands should be washed with soap in he mouth,, your gonna die simple stuff no
?
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nightlight
Well-known
thanks to all for the quick replies!
I bought the Polymax fixer from Kodak and I suppose the same silver disposal considerations apply? Do anyone of you in the UK know the disposal regulations for that?
thanks
I bought the Polymax fixer from Kodak and I suppose the same silver disposal considerations apply? Do anyone of you in the UK know the disposal regulations for that?
thanks
R
RML
Guest
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions?
On the kitchen counter.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nothing, unless the open window counts (only in Summer).
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Flush it through the sink.
I had similar fears before starting out, and reading the backside of the packs and bottles didn't help much: bigger confusion and more fear. But the general consensus is that unless you drink the stuff, it's harmless. Just don't brew your mixes in a small (toilet) room without ventilation, especially when you're going to do printing. But your average bath room has plenty of ventilation, and a little care and attention will prevent you from touching any of the chemicals. Besides, the dilutions are often such that the chemicals are quite harmless. Like I said, just don't drink it, and wash your hands if you touched the stuff.
On the kitchen counter.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nothing, unless the open window counts (only in Summer).
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Flush it through the sink.
I had similar fears before starting out, and reading the backside of the packs and bottles didn't help much: bigger confusion and more fear. But the general consensus is that unless you drink the stuff, it's harmless. Just don't brew your mixes in a small (toilet) room without ventilation, especially when you're going to do printing. But your average bath room has plenty of ventilation, and a little care and attention will prevent you from touching any of the chemicals. Besides, the dilutions are often such that the chemicals are quite harmless. Like I said, just don't drink it, and wash your hands if you touched the stuff.
nightlight
Well-known
RML said:
thank you for the reply. that's exactly how I felt earlier today. Meeting this friend of mine who works in research didn't help I suppose. She went to the Kodak website and got the MSDS (Manufacturer Safety Data Sheet) - something I didn't even know existed and there you get the fear of your life with words like irreversible, cancer, etc etc...
reading all your replies, I feel re-assured now
MartinP
Veteran
Following the link to the Ilford health & Safety pages in my post above (this link) it is clear that small amounts of the non-toxic silver compound present in black-and-white fixer is not a problem for the water-treatment plants in the UK. Going commercial and making hundreds of litres a week is different of course.
Eric T
Well-known
Clarel,
Perhaps the easiest way to decide how to handle these chemicals is to look at the MSDS safety sheets that are available online. Simply google MSDS followed by the name of the chemical. The first result is usually the MSDS sheet for that molecule.
For phenidone, you can find the MSDS sheet here:
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone.html
For hydroqinone see:
http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/HY/hydroquinone.html
For both compounds, look at the risk phrases. The link is given for the meaning of the risk phrases.
So for hydroquinone, you shouldn't inhale it or swallow it and it is harmful to aquatic environments. For phenidone, you shouldn't inhale it or swallow it.
Based on this information, I would use a well ventilated room preferably one with an exhaust fan. I don't know that a standard mask would prevent you from breathing it. Neither compound appears to harm the skin upon contact but it is just good lab practice (and I run a lab at the University of Florida) to always wear gloves and a lab coat. Once you get in the habit of doing these things it becomes second nature and is not a hindrance.
For disposal, contact your local water authority. Hydroquinone might be a problem but your local waste treatment plant may inactivate it. I suspect they will tell you that both compounds will be diluted so much in the waste stream that they will not pose a threat. But call them. I could be wrong.
I hope this helps.
Eric
Perhaps the easiest way to decide how to handle these chemicals is to look at the MSDS safety sheets that are available online. Simply google MSDS followed by the name of the chemical. The first result is usually the MSDS sheet for that molecule.
For phenidone, you can find the MSDS sheet here:
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidinone.html
For hydroqinone see:
http://www.physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/HY/hydroquinone.html
For both compounds, look at the risk phrases. The link is given for the meaning of the risk phrases.
So for hydroquinone, you shouldn't inhale it or swallow it and it is harmful to aquatic environments. For phenidone, you shouldn't inhale it or swallow it.
Based on this information, I would use a well ventilated room preferably one with an exhaust fan. I don't know that a standard mask would prevent you from breathing it. Neither compound appears to harm the skin upon contact but it is just good lab practice (and I run a lab at the University of Florida) to always wear gloves and a lab coat. Once you get in the habit of doing these things it becomes second nature and is not a hindrance.
For disposal, contact your local water authority. Hydroquinone might be a problem but your local waste treatment plant may inactivate it. I suspect they will tell you that both compounds will be diluted so much in the waste stream that they will not pose a threat. But call them. I could be wrong.
I hope this helps.
Eric
sepiareverb
genius and moron
I take my fixer to work (college) and have it run through the silver recovery system there. Developers go there as well, but go down the drain (I'm on a septic tank here and have concerns about dumping that into it).
You might look into a local college for your fixer- here they are happy to have the extra silver.
You might look into a local college for your fixer- here they are happy to have the extra silver.
oscroft
Veteran
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions?
In the kitchen, using dedicated jugs etc.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nope.
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Down the drain.
In the kitchen, using dedicated jugs etc.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nope.
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Down the drain.
Bryce
Well-known
1) ...special ventilation?
No; I only use these products occasionally, and the health risks seem quite minimal from what I can find.
2) and 3) ...gloves, face masks?
No, BUT- I do nothing that involves direct contact with the chemistry. If you're doing something that does, like developing sheet film in a tank and agitating by 'shuffling' you definitely should. A face mask could be a good idea when mixing powdered chemicals.
4)... dispose of solutions?
I also have a septic system. Having read that most photochemicals will break down harmlessly in aerobic (municipal) sewage treatment systems, but not anaerobic (septic) systems, I do the following:
Fixer contains both sodium thiosulfate and silver, which of course will not break down. I have it recycled at a local one hour lab.
Developers will break down via oxidation; I leave the developer in an open tray for a few weeks in an outbuilding to oxidize, then pour it down the drain. Some people let it dry completely and send it to the landfill, possibly a better solution.
Stop goes in with the oxidized developer to bring the PH nearer to neutral.
The only chemical I use that goes to the hazardous waste pickup is selenium toner, because it contains heavy metal (selenium). This may well be overkill, but I see that as the best option without clearer information available.
I sincerely hope you'll go ahead and pursue home development. Considering the other chemicals you and your sewage system are exposed to, I can't help get the feeling that risks from occasional use of B+W chemistry is insignificant. If that isn't the case, why wouldn't photographers be known to have short lives? We don't as far as I'm aware.
No; I only use these products occasionally, and the health risks seem quite minimal from what I can find.
2) and 3) ...gloves, face masks?
No, BUT- I do nothing that involves direct contact with the chemistry. If you're doing something that does, like developing sheet film in a tank and agitating by 'shuffling' you definitely should. A face mask could be a good idea when mixing powdered chemicals.
4)... dispose of solutions?
I also have a septic system. Having read that most photochemicals will break down harmlessly in aerobic (municipal) sewage treatment systems, but not anaerobic (septic) systems, I do the following:
Fixer contains both sodium thiosulfate and silver, which of course will not break down. I have it recycled at a local one hour lab.
Developers will break down via oxidation; I leave the developer in an open tray for a few weeks in an outbuilding to oxidize, then pour it down the drain. Some people let it dry completely and send it to the landfill, possibly a better solution.
Stop goes in with the oxidized developer to bring the PH nearer to neutral.
The only chemical I use that goes to the hazardous waste pickup is selenium toner, because it contains heavy metal (selenium). This may well be overkill, but I see that as the best option without clearer information available.
I sincerely hope you'll go ahead and pursue home development. Considering the other chemicals you and your sewage system are exposed to, I can't help get the feeling that risks from occasional use of B+W chemistry is insignificant. If that isn't the case, why wouldn't photographers be known to have short lives? We don't as far as I'm aware.
Terao
Kiloran
Nothing to worry about for occasional low volume amateur use in my opinion. We chuck all sorts of far worse chemicals down the drain every day (drain cleaner, sink unblockers, bleach, etc.) and unless you're snorting the stuff or pouring it over your hands you're getting more exposure to carcinogens by walking through the traffic in central London. These warnings are for large scale commercial use and as with all H&S warnings they're of the "what's the worst that can happen?" variety, primarily for legal reasons
traveller
Learning how to print
nightlight said:thank you for the reply. that's exactly how I felt earlier today. Meeting this friend of mine who works in research didn't help I suppose. She went to the Kodak website and got the MSDS (Manufacturer Safety Data Sheet) - something I didn't even know existed and there you get the fear of your life with words like irreversible, cancer, etc etc...
reading all your replies, I feel re-assured now
The company I work for sells some real nasty stuff to research labs but I get more frightened when I go to the supermarket and read the small print from the meals in the fridge
. To take care of the nasty stuff is easier....Xmas
Veteran
nightlight said:
Clarel
Hi, still suffering from (your) M2 envy here...
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions? kitchen worktop/sink - but I only use made up solutions - Rodinal/fast fix, except when I wet print...
1. Do you have special ventilation in place? no normal extractors
2. Do you wear gloves? When handling the Rodinal, either conc or dilute, yes
3. Do you wear face masks? No
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution? kitchen sink
Your PQ dev omits the metol so is less likely to cause allergy, But Id still use kitchen gloves, the cyclic organics are not nice, the alkaline solution is not good for skin.
I Wipe down the work surfaces afterwards.
If I had a septic I'd not use sink disposal.
If you spill used fixer it can stain carpets or other surfaces, pretty difficult to impossible to remove.
Noel
P.S. not found the Slade CD yet
Pepe
Established
0. Where exactly do you do the mixing/processing of solutions?
In the kitchen, using dedicated jugs etc.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nope.
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Down the drain.
Seriously, I believe a walk in any major city in the world these days is one hell af a lot worse for your health then occasional contact with photographic chemicals.
In the kitchen, using dedicated jugs etc.
1. Do you have special ventilation in place?
Nope.
2. Do you wear gloves?
Nope.
3. Do you wear face masks?
Nope.
4. Most importantly, how do you dispose of your solution?
Down the drain.
Seriously, I believe a walk in any major city in the world these days is one hell af a lot worse for your health then occasional contact with photographic chemicals.
nrb
Nuno Borges
A little question that maybe someone can answer. It may interest those of us who use the bathroom as a darkroom. Is there any health hazard related to the reaction between toothpaste and Rodinal or hc-110 but not d-76 or Ilfosol S?
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
i do mix all my stuff from scratch and I am careful with the stuff.
Phenidone is not too bad, particularly in suspension as the concentration is very low and it can be disposed of in a regular drain.
Pyro gallic acid and Pyro catechol is VERY toxic and if you mix from powder, wear a mask and gloves. In suspension it is less of a hazard, but avoid getting it on your skin.
Metol/Hydroquinone are not too bad, but some people have sensitivities to these chemicals and can develop rashes or reddening of the skin. It is a good idea to mix it away from the darkroom as it is a "dusty" powder. Metol sensitivity is quite common and replacing it with Phenidone usually takes care of it.
Sodium Sulphite is OK, unless you use your hands to scoop it out! It is actually used in the meat packing industry as a preservative.
Sodium Carbonate is a common chemical, used for cleaning swimming pools. It can be a skin irritant, but it is not a common afliction.
Selenium toners should be treated with respect s it is easily absorbed through the skin. Use gloves for mixing and tongs for shuffling prints.
Sodium Hydroxide is plain dangerous. NEVER pour water into the hydroxide. It can turn into a boiling, spattering corrosive mess. Always add it to the water and check that it doesn't get too hot!
I use plastic spoons and "medicine cups" from the pharmacy for mixing and each chemical has their dedicated spoon/cup. I also have a large collection of graduates that are marked for specific mixes and everything is washed and cleaned after use.
If you use Ferrocyanide for bleaching or "spot" work on prints DO NOT have any stop bath around. If the Ferrocyanide solution gets any acid in it, it will release cyanide gas! I haven't heard of anyone getting killed, but i have made the mistake myself and the term "gasping for air" doesn't even begin to describe the effect!
Disposing of fix is a problem, but I must admit that mine is poured out and as it is heavily diluted it doesn't present a problem. It takes about 80 rolls of 35mm film to create 1 ounce of silver so the concentration is reasonably small. If you are on a septic system, I would not pour any of the darkroom chemicals out in the drain.
We can consider ourselves lucky though. The Daquerrotypists had to develop their plates with fuming mercury!
If you use common sense you should be OK and remember that the health warnings on packages are a/ Usually for large scale operations and b/to keep litigation laywers away.
Phenidone is not too bad, particularly in suspension as the concentration is very low and it can be disposed of in a regular drain.
Pyro gallic acid and Pyro catechol is VERY toxic and if you mix from powder, wear a mask and gloves. In suspension it is less of a hazard, but avoid getting it on your skin.
Metol/Hydroquinone are not too bad, but some people have sensitivities to these chemicals and can develop rashes or reddening of the skin. It is a good idea to mix it away from the darkroom as it is a "dusty" powder. Metol sensitivity is quite common and replacing it with Phenidone usually takes care of it.
Sodium Sulphite is OK, unless you use your hands to scoop it out! It is actually used in the meat packing industry as a preservative.
Sodium Carbonate is a common chemical, used for cleaning swimming pools. It can be a skin irritant, but it is not a common afliction.
Selenium toners should be treated with respect s it is easily absorbed through the skin. Use gloves for mixing and tongs for shuffling prints.
Sodium Hydroxide is plain dangerous. NEVER pour water into the hydroxide. It can turn into a boiling, spattering corrosive mess. Always add it to the water and check that it doesn't get too hot!
I use plastic spoons and "medicine cups" from the pharmacy for mixing and each chemical has their dedicated spoon/cup. I also have a large collection of graduates that are marked for specific mixes and everything is washed and cleaned after use.
If you use Ferrocyanide for bleaching or "spot" work on prints DO NOT have any stop bath around. If the Ferrocyanide solution gets any acid in it, it will release cyanide gas! I haven't heard of anyone getting killed, but i have made the mistake myself and the term "gasping for air" doesn't even begin to describe the effect!
Disposing of fix is a problem, but I must admit that mine is poured out and as it is heavily diluted it doesn't present a problem. It takes about 80 rolls of 35mm film to create 1 ounce of silver so the concentration is reasonably small. If you are on a septic system, I would not pour any of the darkroom chemicals out in the drain.
We can consider ourselves lucky though. The Daquerrotypists had to develop their plates with fuming mercury!
If you use common sense you should be OK and remember that the health warnings on packages are a/ Usually for large scale operations and b/to keep litigation laywers away.